Jamdhar katari - a theory

Stan S. · 12th April 2012, 07:42 PM

This theory of mine if true, may be common knowledge, and if so, please forgive me as I am not aware of it. It is also entirely possible that I am dead wrong but I think this is an interesting thought, so here it goes:

Yesterday, I was playing with my new jamdhar katari dagger and its name got me thinking... At a glance, it does not resemble a katar (nothing really does, besides pata) but "katar" is present in its name... Why? I remember reading somewhere that katar means a tooth or a fang in some native dialect. If so, why dont we have more edged weapons from India with "katar" in their name? Then I looked closely at the distinct shape of the grip and it dawned on me: It looks remarkably like a single grip bar on a katar! Jamdhar's oversized pommel and crossguard resemble the steel straps of the katar hilt and function much in the same way by locking the wrist in place. So I pulled out one of my katars and compared the two. Surprisingly, at both being 3 inches wide, even the size of the grip is virtually the same!

So, would it be safe to draw a conclusion that jamdhar katari and a katar share a similar grip? Aside from a differently oriented blade, they appear designed to be held in a similar way. Does this make these two weapons related somehow? And does it indicate any similarities in their use?

Stan S. · 12th April 2012, 07:43 PM

Some more

Stan S. · 12th April 2012, 07:45 PM

Also, while we are at it, I would be very gratefull if someone could help me desypher the writing on the blade. It may be pictures of some kind. They are present on both sides and are also faintly repeated on the front of the scabbard.

spiral · 12th April 2012, 10:50 PM

I only hope that one day I can be as insightful as you....

I think youve without doubt taken the history of these weapons one step further than anyone else.....

Spiral

Emanuel · 13th April 2012, 07:50 AM

Hi Stan,

I'll throw a wrinkle at you

. I don't recall the source - it might have been in Pant, or in the old catalog about Akbar's weapons, I'm sure it's in one of the older threads here - but it seems that the naming connection is actually the other way around. What we known as "katar" is actually called "jamadhar" and the "katar" bit was erroneously attributed to the wrong knife type. Both knives were in the same drawing palte.

A quick search reveals that "katar" is a derivative of "kutarni" which means knife in Hindi. I think someone mentioned this in the old threads.

So "jamdhar katari" would be a knife of jamdhar type, not a jamdhar of katar type. Either way, "katari" refers to the blade, not the specific handle type.

Note than "jamadar" was a military rank. While it was a minor rank in modern times, I recall reading it was closer to the rank of captain in pre-colonial times.

Just some more thoughts...

Regards,
Emanuel

Emanuel · 13th April 2012, 08:32 AM

While searching for synonyms for "knife" I also found "chhuri" origin of the word "choora". "ch-huri" and "kutarni" both have feminine ending, while "choora" would have been masculine. This brings back to mind the debate over chooras and karuds. Since both words literally mean "knife" it wouldn't matter what we call them to their original owners/makers.

Emanuel

Roland_M · 16th September 2017, 02:41 PM

Hello Stan,

I can see one possible explanation.
The Katar was a pretty expensive weapon with a very well reputation. Not everybody could afford a Katar.
So the Jamdhar could be an attempt to catch a little bit of the aura of a Katar for a much lower price. A weapon for lower ranks.

Just a guess!

Roland

12th April 2012, 07:42 PM	#1
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Jamdhar katari - a theory This theory of mine if true, may be common knowledge, and if so, please forgive me as I am not aware of it. It is also entirely possible that I am dead wrong but I think this is an interesting thought, so here it goes: Yesterday, I was playing with my new jamdhar katari dagger and its name got me thinking... At a glance, it does not resemble a katar (nothing really does, besides pata) but "katar" is present in its name... Why? I remember reading somewhere that katar means a tooth or a fang in some native dialect. If so, why dont we have more edged weapons from India with "katar" in their name? Then I looked closely at the distinct shape of the grip and it dawned on me: It looks remarkably like a single grip bar on a katar! Jamdhar's oversized pommel and crossguard resemble the steel straps of the katar hilt and function much in the same way by locking the wrist in place. So I pulled out one of my katars and compared the two. Surprisingly, at both being 3 inches wide, even the size of the grip is virtually the same! So, would it be safe to draw a conclusion that jamdhar katari and a katar share a similar grip? Aside from a differently oriented blade, they appear designed to be held in a similar way. Does this make these two weapons related somehow? And does it indicate any similarities in their use? Attached Images

12th April 2012, 07:43 PM	#2
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Some more Attached Images

13th April 2012, 07:50 AM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Stan, I'll throw a wrinkle at you . I don't recall the source - it might have been in Pant, or in the old catalog about Akbar's weapons, I'm sure it's in one of the older threads here - but it seems that the naming connection is actually the other way around. What we known as "katar" is actually called "jamadhar" and the "katar" bit was erroneously attributed to the wrong knife type. Both knives were in the same drawing palte. A quick search reveals that "katar" is a derivative of "kutarni" which means knife in Hindi. I think someone mentioned this in the old threads. So "jamdhar katari" would be a knife of jamdhar type, not a jamdhar of katar type. Either way, "katari" refers to the blade, not the specific handle type. Note than "jamadar" was a military rank. While it was a minor rank in modern times, I recall reading it was closer to the rank of captain in pre-colonial times. Just some more thoughts... Regards, Emanuel Last edited by Emanuel; 13th April 2012 at 08:37 AM.

12th April 2012, 07:45 PM	#3
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Also, while we are at it, I would be very gratefull if someone could help me desypher the writing on the blade. It may be pictures of some kind. They are present on both sides and are also faintly repeated on the front of the scabbard.

12th April 2012, 10:50 PM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	I only hope that one day I can be as insightful as you.... I think youve without doubt taken the history of these weapons one step further than anyone else..... Spiral

13th April 2012, 08:32 AM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	While searching for synonyms for "knife" I also found "chhuri" origin of the word "choora". "ch-huri" and "kutarni" both have feminine ending, while "choora" would have been masculine. This brings back to mind the debate over chooras and karuds. Since both words literally mean "knife" it wouldn't matter what we call them to their original owners/makers. Emanuel

16th September 2017, 02:41 PM	#7
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	Hello Stan, I can see one possible explanation. The Katar was a pretty expensive weapon with a very well reputation. Not everybody could afford a Katar. So the Jamdhar could be an attempt to catch a little bit of the aura of a Katar for a much lower price. A weapon for lower ranks. Just a guess! Roland