Bronze Dagger

45Auto · 8th July 2005, 04:29 AM

Any idea of what this bronze dagger might be? I have never seen anything like it.

The owner thinks it is extremely old (1,000 years) but I have no idea.

Another question, language is cast into it?

Thanks,
Greg

erlikhan · 8th July 2005, 09:09 AM

I dont think bronze was still a material used 1000 years ago by bladesmiths. it had been many decades since the development of much cheaper and stronger iron technology (1000s B.C. perhaps lets say 500 years later in China). So it must be at least 2500 yrs old if original. And it seems too new for that age to me. Not patinated at all, and details fresh . they should have become a bit or more erroded depending on the composition of the soil it has rested in till it was found. Too many Chinese bronze fakes are sold on internet and I am afraid this one seems very much like one of them.

45Auto · 8th July 2005, 03:30 PM

The owner says it came home from WWII in a G.I. footlocker, which may indicate that it's at least a 60 year old copy of..... what ? . Good point about the extent of oxidation, etc.

Anyway, is the writing on this item an early form of Chinese?

Thanks,
Greg

Rivkin · 9th July 2005, 03:32 AM

My guess would be more african ? May be an imitation of ancient egyptian daggers ? The "language" seems like a collection of pictogramms, but they look obviously non-egyptian, so it can be an imitation ?

not2sharp · 9th July 2005, 05:24 AM

The owner says it came home from WWII in a G.I. footlocker, which may indicate that it's at least a 60 year old copy of..... what ?

It implies that, but he didn't actually say that. If I have a footlooker and throw something in it, does that make it 60 years old?

Chinese antiques are notoriously faked. If you found an intact 2500-3500 year old object; would you toss it in a locker and forget about it? The real ones are usually found in official dig and very well documented. This is not the kind of thing that survives unless it is preserved in a very secure location (like a tomb). From the pictures I would be bothered by the abondance of sharp straight lines; nature hates a straight line and will always do its best to wear it away.

n2s

Ian · 9th July 2005, 01:08 PM

Greg:

I'm unclear whether you believe this is a solid bronze dagger or just the hilt is bronze. It is dificult to tell from the pictures, but the blade is definitely a different color, with staining and mild corrosion, and I believe I can see evidence of lamination. That would make the blade steel rather than bronze, would it not?

A steel blade with a bronze hilt suggests something different from what we have been discussing.

Ian.

Tim Simmons · 9th July 2005, 01:36 PM

I am wiling to bet that this is, how shall I put it, a recent Chinese decorative reproduction of Shang or Zhou dynasty, centuries BC anyway, bronze weapon. Ebay is full of them. A real one would boost your pension fund just a little. Tim

fearn · 9th July 2005, 02:14 PM

I'm with Tim on this one. Those characters look like some version of Chinese, not African characters (hieroglpyhs?)

More importantly, the truly fresh-minted condition of a weapon that (if genuine) would be, oh, 2,000 years old or so, kinda makes me think that it's a bit more recent. It might well have been found in an expedition to EBay country, for instance.

F

Battara · 9th July 2005, 02:48 PM

This is Chinese with copied ancient Chinese script. Ancient Chinese script was more pictographic in nature because it came from pictographs.

Jens Nordlunde · 9th July 2005, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

This is Chinese with copied ancient Chinese script. Ancient Chinese script was more pictographic in nature because it came from pictographs.

You mean, like in a cartoon, when someone swears, you see dark clouds, daggers, lightening, sculls and so on

.

BluErf · 10th July 2005, 01:49 PM

The characters could approximate some ancient Chinese script, but I have a feeling they are just gibberish. Some of the characters just look out of place, like the "hourglass" character.

8th July 2005, 04:29 AM	#1
45Auto Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 16	Bronze Dagger Any idea of what this bronze dagger might be? I have never seen anything like it. The owner thinks it is extremely old (1,000 years) but I have no idea. Another question, language is cast into it? Thanks, Greg

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8th July 2005, 09:09 AM	#2
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	I dont think bronze was still a material used 1000 years ago by bladesmiths. it had been many decades since the development of much cheaper and stronger iron technology (1000s B.C. perhaps lets say 500 years later in China). So it must be at least 2500 yrs old if original. And it seems too new for that age to me. Not patinated at all, and details fresh . they should have become a bit or more erroded depending on the composition of the soil it has rested in till it was found. Too many Chinese bronze fakes are sold on internet and I am afraid this one seems very much like one of them.

8th July 2005, 03:30 PM	#3
45Auto Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 16	The owner says it came home from WWII in a G.I. footlocker, which may indicate that it's at least a 60 year old copy of..... what ? . Good point about the extent of oxidation, etc. Anyway, is the writing on this item an early form of Chinese? Thanks, Greg

9th July 2005, 03:32 AM	#4
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	My guess would be more african ? May be an imitation of ancient egyptian daggers ? The "language" seems like a collection of pictogramms, but they look obviously non-egyptian, so it can be an imitation ?

9th July 2005, 05:24 AM	#5
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	The owner says it came home from WWII in a G.I. footlocker, which may indicate that it's at least a 60 year old copy of..... what ? It implies that, but he didn't actually say that. If I have a footlooker and throw something in it, does that make it 60 years old? Chinese antiques are notoriously faked. If you found an intact 2500-3500 year old object; would you toss it in a locker and forget about it? The real ones are usually found in official dig and very well documented. This is not the kind of thing that survives unless it is preserved in a very secure location (like a tomb). From the pictures I would be bothered by the abondance of sharp straight lines; nature hates a straight line and will always do its best to wear it away. n2s

9th July 2005, 01:08 PM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Greg: I'm unclear whether you believe this is a solid bronze dagger or just the hilt is bronze. It is dificult to tell from the pictures, but the blade is definitely a different color, with staining and mild corrosion, and I believe I can see evidence of lamination. That would make the blade steel rather than bronze, would it not? A steel blade with a bronze hilt suggests something different from what we have been discussing. Ian.

9th July 2005, 01:36 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I am wiling to bet that this is, how shall I put it, a recent Chinese decorative reproduction of Shang or Zhou dynasty, centuries BC anyway, bronze weapon. Ebay is full of them. A real one would boost your pension fund just a little. Tim

9th July 2005, 02:14 PM	#8
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I'm with Tim on this one. Those characters look like some version of Chinese, not African characters (hieroglpyhs?) More importantly, the truly fresh-minted condition of a weapon that (if genuine) would be, oh, 2,000 years old or so, kinda makes me think that it's a bit more recent. It might well have been found in an expedition to EBay country, for instance. F

9th July 2005, 02:48 PM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	This is Chinese with copied ancient Chinese script. Ancient Chinese script was more pictographic in nature because it came from pictographs.

10th July 2005, 01:49 PM	#11
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	The characters could approximate some ancient Chinese script, but I have a feeling they are just gibberish. Some of the characters just look out of place, like the "hourglass" character.