Who am I

tuancd · 21st June 2005, 04:18 PM

Hi everybody
We have had an extensive study on durga on another thread.
Lets start this one with another interesting deity
any suggestion?
Regards

Rick · 21st June 2005, 04:59 PM

I think this is a trick question , but I'll play the fool (I'm good at that

) .
This would appear to be a representation of Ganesha , the only thing that throws me off a little is that there seems to be a beak at the beginning of the trunk and one tusk does 'not' appear to be shorter than the other .

Jan · 21st June 2005, 05:33 PM

I can see the beak (or is it a snout?), but I do not see a trunk - which now throws me off a little from the Ganesha theory as well

He/she/it is licking or chewing on something.
But what is it, if not a trunk?

Battara · 21st June 2005, 05:53 PM

I see this as a trunk of Ganesha, son of Shiva and I think Parvati. He gives good fortune.

tom hyle · 21st June 2005, 06:30 PM

What appears to be an elephant's trunk (note the cross section and the open tip) and tusks seem to be protruding from the beak. The second k(e)ris handle lately that seems to depict a character with crossover features of two mythic/religious figures (Remember the monkey/bird?). Are bird features commonly attributed/depicted for figures that are not birds? Is disguise or transformation as a mythic theme perhaps relevant? Or did Garuda eat Ganesh? (tie in to legend/memory of the roc?)
The left hand is making a sexual gesture/reference, and that reminds of another k(e)ris hilt we've recently seen, too.

fearn · 21st June 2005, 07:51 PM

Hanuman, perhaps? That's not an elephant: it's something with a muzzle and either a long tongue or something else sticking out of its mouth.

Fearn

Tim Simmons · 21st June 2005, 08:34 PM

This is my picture of Ganesha according to my book. He is not shown with a rat or a butter ball, some of his normal attributes, It cannot be him? according to some arguments. When invaded or conquered, signs of the old order or your true allegiance have to be disguised. Like the supporters of the Jacobite rebelion leader Charles Stuart in 18th century Britian, they found many artistic devises and motifs to put on many objects which would show there allegiance to those in the know.This could well have been the case with krises and slowly becoming a standard art form. Just a thought. Tim

Rick · 21st June 2005, 10:21 PM

Ganesha is often depicted holding his trunk , and he is a pretty stout looking fellow .

tom hyle · 21st June 2005, 10:41 PM

It's not a tongue; tongues are usually flatter and shorter, and they certainly do not have a nose hole in their end. It's not a very naturalistic trunk, and could be something else pehaps, but also, the tusks are visible beside the trunk where it emerges from the birdish mouth. Tim's picture is exhibitting the same feature; the trunk is coming out between the lips of a mouth, which of course is not accurately elephantine. The head/mouth on Tim's picture looks mammalian, while the other seems avian? I can't tell if there is a similar sexual gesture in the picture Tim posted. It is as if an elephant were either wearing a mask with the trunk emerging from the mask's mouth, or as if an elephant were emerging from or disappearing into these mouths.

spiral · 22nd June 2005, 12:44 AM

Well I try to research a lot of the Hindu Gods as they regularily appear on Nepalese Kothimora kukri scabbards, etc. Which is more my field.

But To me it looks like a beaked Garuda , eating a snake.{Naga..}

which rathers matches these words from a Hindu prophet.....

Lord Vishnu sent a message to Lord Shiva. He sent the message through Garuda, the eagle which is Vishnu's vehicle. Garuda came to Shiva, flapping its wings. When the snake, which was adorning Shiva, caught a little feel of the wind which was being produced by the flapping of Garuda's wings, it started hissing. Although an eagle is the deadly enemy of snakes and a snake would normally slink away when an eagle comes near, now, this snake began hissing at Garuda. It had the courage to do this because of the great strength it got by virtue of the position it occupied around the neck of the Lord. When this snake fearlessly continued hissing, Garuda said, "O snake, you are there around the neck of Lord Shiva; therefore I must excuse you. But just come aside a little, come away from there for a moment." The instant the snake leaves its position, it becomes a meal for the eagle. As long as it remains in its position it gains great strength because of its nearness to divinity.
.................................................. .................................................
So thats what I think! {+no proof just opinion

}
Garuda eating a Naga!

Spiral

Rick · 22nd June 2005, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Well I try to research a lot of the Hindu Gods as they regularily appear on Nepalese Kothimora kukri scabbards, etc. Which is my feild.

To me it looks like a beaked Garuda , eating a snake.{Naga..}

which rathers matches these words from a Hindu prophet.....

Lord Vishnu sent a message to Lord Shiva. He sent the message through Garuda, the eagle which is Vishnu's vehicle. Garuda came to Shiva, flapping its wings. When the snake, which was adorning Shiva, caught a little feel of the wind which was being produced by the flapping of Garuda's wings, it started hissing. Although an eagle is the deadly enemy of snakes and a snake would normally slink away when an eagle comes near, now, this snake began hissing at Garuda. It had the courage to do this because of the great strength it got by virtue of the position it occupied around the neck of the Lord. When this snake fearlessly continued hissing, Garuda said, "O snake, you are there around the neck of Lord Shiva; therefore I must excuse you. But just come aside a little, come away from there for a moment." The instant the snake leaves its position, it becomes a meal for the eagle. As long as it remains in its position it gains great strength because of its nearness to divinity.
.................................................. .................................................
So thats what I think! {+no proof just opinion

}
Garuda eating a Naga!

Spiral

That makes a certain amount of sense Spiral , but from an artistic point of view I would expect to see either a head or a tail in the hand of the deity , and what about those tusk like features in the mouth , they are unlike most Balinese fang representations .

M ELEY · 22nd June 2005, 05:00 AM

Could the object protruding from the deity's mouth possibly be a pipe of some sort? That would explain the similarity to a trunk and how the mouth appears above it. I would also guess a garuda, judging from the feather-like protrusions from the top of the head...

tuancd · 22nd June 2005, 10:23 AM

Thanks to all

I must admit that I'm balanced between Ganesh and a Garuda Balinese interpretation.

If we compare this handle to the Ganesh I'm posting now, the artist interpretation would weight more for a Ganesh.
This one has the same nose holes on top of the trunk, same fangs, and is obviously a Ganesh.

any further clues are welcome.

by the way I'm republishing an article about handle and I miss some pictures for a nice Ganesh like the one posted by Tim. If anyone want to have his hulu published, he is welcome.

tom hyle · 22nd June 2005, 01:51 PM

It seems like the same figure as #1 (though he holds a club, rather than a statue of a penis, and does he not display a 3rd eye?). #2 is somewhat more different. Both #1 and #2 have a lip or beak edge (#2 definitely doesn't look like a beak; looks like a mammal) that crosses the trunk, so that the trunk emerges from beneath it. #3 is more realistic/naturalistic, as the trunk comes out of the surface of the face, not from below the lip, thoug the nostrils are still there, as said. One thing to consider, as I've mentioned about Africa, is that these people may have not seen elephants in person? Are we running on an assumption that this is Ganesh because of the elephant feature(s)? Is this confirmed by native/documentary sources? Is it possible it's someone else, even? Are the nonelepnant features artistic conventions perhaps grown of ignorance, like Europeans carving dolphins with nose holes in their nose? Or do the combined features illustrate some particular tale/attribute/etc?

Rick · 22nd June 2005, 02:26 PM

Hi Cedric , I think what we're looking at here are two representations (with artistic license) or interpretations of Lord Ganesha . I've got to believe that if it were Garuda eating a snake it would be more obvious as I stated before . The cup at the end of the trunk in the first example is too elephant-like to represent even a part of a snake . One other point , Lord Ganesha is depicted with nostrils above his trunk in many Balinese carvings . I think that this feature tends to impart a beak like look to the face , also the horizontal tusks just don't fit with a Garuda interpretation IMO .

When the Naga is depicted it is usually more obvious :

nechesh · 22nd June 2005, 02:58 PM

Sorry guys, but i don't see the controversy. Even with the beak like structure the first pic appears to be obviously Ganesh, ears and all. As Rick has pointed out, he often holds one trunk in his hand as is depicted here clearly. I cannot see this as being anyone else.

21st June 2005, 08:34 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	This is my picture of Ganesha according to my book. He is not shown with a rat or a butter ball, some of his normal attributes, It cannot be him? according to some arguments. When invaded or conquered, signs of the old order or your true allegiance have to be disguised. Like the supporters of the Jacobite rebelion leader Charles Stuart in 18th century Britian, they found many artistic devises and motifs to put on many objects which would show there allegiance to those in the know.This could well have been the case with krises and slowly becoming a standard art form. Just a thought. Tim Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 22nd June 2005 at 08:45 PM.

22nd June 2005, 12:44 AM	#10
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Well I try to research a lot of the Hindu Gods as they regularily appear on Nepalese Kothimora kukri scabbards, etc. Which is more my field. But To me it looks like a beaked Garuda , eating a snake.{Naga..} which rathers matches these words from a Hindu prophet..... Lord Vishnu sent a message to Lord Shiva. He sent the message through Garuda, the eagle which is Vishnu's vehicle. Garuda came to Shiva, flapping its wings. When the snake, which was adorning Shiva, caught a little feel of the wind which was being produced by the flapping of Garuda's wings, it started hissing. Although an eagle is the deadly enemy of snakes and a snake would normally slink away when an eagle comes near, now, this snake began hissing at Garuda. It had the courage to do this because of the great strength it got by virtue of the position it occupied around the neck of the Lord. When this snake fearlessly continued hissing, Garuda said, "O snake, you are there around the neck of Lord Shiva; therefore I must excuse you. But just come aside a little, come away from there for a moment." The instant the snake leaves its position, it becomes a meal for the eagle. As long as it remains in its position it gains great strength because of its nearness to divinity. .................................................. ................................................. So thats what I think! {+no proof just opinion } Garuda eating a Naga! Spiral Last edited by spiral; 22nd June 2005 at 01:25 AM.

22nd June 2005, 10:23 AM	#13
tuancd Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paris - Bruxelles Posts: 32	Thanks to all I must admit that I'm balanced between Ganesh and a Garuda Balinese interpretation. If we compare this handle to the Ganesh I'm posting now, the artist interpretation would weight more for a Ganesh. This one has the same nose holes on top of the trunk, same fangs, and is obviously a Ganesh. any further clues are welcome. by the way I'm republishing an article about handle and I miss some pictures for a nice Ganesh like the one posted by Tim. If anyone want to have his hulu published, he is welcome. Attached Images

22nd June 2005, 02:26 PM	#15
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Hi Cedric , I think what we're looking at here are two representations (with artistic license) or interpretations of Lord Ganesha . I've got to believe that if it were Garuda eating a snake it would be more obvious as I stated before . The cup at the end of the trunk in the first example is too elephant-like to represent even a part of a snake . One other point , Lord Ganesha is depicted with nostrils above his trunk in many Balinese carvings . I think that this feature tends to impart a beak like look to the face , also the horizontal tusks just don't fit with a Garuda interpretation IMO . When the Naga is depicted it is usually more obvious : Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 22nd June 2005 at 02:37 PM.

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21st June 2005, 04:18 PM	#1
tuancd Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paris - Bruxelles Posts: 32	Who am I Hi everybody We have had an extensive study on durga on another thread. Lets start this one with another interesting deity any suggestion? Regards Attached Images

21st June 2005, 04:59 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Somehow I think this is a trick question , but I'll play the fool (I'm good at that ) . This would appear to be a representation of Ganesha , the only thing that throws me off a little is that there seems to be a beak at the beginning of the trunk and one tusk does 'not' appear to be shorter than the other .

21st June 2005, 05:33 PM	#3
Jan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 8	I can see the beak (or is it a snout?), but I do not see a trunk - which now throws me off a little from the Ganesha theory as well He/she/it is licking or chewing on something. But what is it, if not a trunk?

21st June 2005, 05:53 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I see this as a trunk of Ganesha, son of Shiva and I think Parvati. He gives good fortune.

21st June 2005, 06:30 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	What appears to be an elephant's trunk (note the cross section and the open tip) and tusks seem to be protruding from the beak. The second k(e)ris handle lately that seems to depict a character with crossover features of two mythic/religious figures (Remember the monkey/bird?). Are bird features commonly attributed/depicted for figures that are not birds? Is disguise or transformation as a mythic theme perhaps relevant? Or did Garuda eat Ganesh? (tie in to legend/memory of the roc?) The left hand is making a sexual gesture/reference, and that reminds of another k(e)ris hilt we've recently seen, too.

21st June 2005, 07:51 PM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hanuman, perhaps? That's not an elephant: it's something with a muzzle and either a long tongue or something else sticking out of its mouth. Fearn

21st June 2005, 10:21 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Ganesha is often depicted holding his trunk , and he is a pretty stout looking fellow .

21st June 2005, 10:41 PM	#9
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	It's not a tongue; tongues are usually flatter and shorter, and they certainly do not have a nose hole in their end. It's not a very naturalistic trunk, and could be something else pehaps, but also, the tusks are visible beside the trunk where it emerges from the birdish mouth. Tim's picture is exhibitting the same feature; the trunk is coming out between the lips of a mouth, which of course is not accurately elephantine. The head/mouth on Tim's picture looks mammalian, while the other seems avian? I can't tell if there is a similar sexual gesture in the picture Tim posted. It is as if an elephant were either wearing a mask with the trunk emerging from the mask's mouth, or as if an elephant were emerging from or disappearing into these mouths.

22nd June 2005, 05:00 AM	#12
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	Could the object protruding from the deity's mouth possibly be a pipe of some sort? That would explain the similarity to a trunk and how the mouth appears above it. I would also guess a garuda, judging from the feather-like protrusions from the top of the head...

22nd June 2005, 01:51 PM	#14
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	It seems like the same figure as #1 (though he holds a club, rather than a statue of a penis, and does he not display a 3rd eye?). #2 is somewhat more different. Both #1 and #2 have a lip or beak edge (#2 definitely doesn't look like a beak; looks like a mammal) that crosses the trunk, so that the trunk emerges from beneath it. #3 is more realistic/naturalistic, as the trunk comes out of the surface of the face, not from below the lip, thoug the nostrils are still there, as said. One thing to consider, as I've mentioned about Africa, is that these people may have not seen elephants in person? Are we running on an assumption that this is Ganesh because of the elephant feature(s)? Is this confirmed by native/documentary sources? Is it possible it's someone else, even? Are the nonelepnant features artistic conventions perhaps grown of ignorance, like Europeans carving dolphins with nose holes in their nose? Or do the combined features illustrate some particular tale/attribute/etc?

22nd June 2005, 02:58 PM	#16
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Sorry guys, but i don't see the controversy. Even with the beak like structure the first pic appears to be obviously Ganesh, ears and all. As Rick has pointed out, he often holds one trunk in his hand as is depicted here clearly. I cannot see this as being anyone else.