BUNTEL MAYAT

A. G. Maisey · 28th May 2007, 01:32 AM

Words have defined meanings, and where a word appears in two languages, but carries different meanings in those languages, it it easy for confusion to arise, especially where the two languages concerned are often used interchangeably by the speakers of those languages.

Dictionaries can be useful in clarification of precisely what is meant in the context of subject matter and language usage.

The pamor motif:- BUNTEL MAYAT, and the use of the word MAYAT.

The pamor motif "buntel mayat" is named in the Javanese language.

The words used to name it must not be understood as Indonesian, but must be understood as Javanese.

In Indonesian "buntel mayat", and also "buntel mayit" both have the meaning of "corpse wrapping". The words "mayat" and "mayit" are simply variant pronunciations for "human corpse".

In Javanese "buntel mayit" has the meaning of "corpse wrapping".

In Javanese "buntel mayat" has the meaning of "slanted wrapping".

The word "mayat" has the alternative meaning of "slightly sloping", and in Old Javanese it meant "to work hard".

The name of the pamor motif is "buntel mayat", the language used is Javanese, not Indonesian, thus the meaning of "buntel mayat" is "slanted wrapping". This meaning perfectly describes the pamor to which it refers.

When we are using the words of keris terminology, we are always using Javanese words, not Indonesian words.
Sometimes a Javanese word will also be an Indonesian word, and sometimes the meaning of that word in Indonesian will be the same, or similar, to its meaning in Javanese.
But this is not always the case.

I believe it is important to clarify the way in which the word "mayat" must be understood. Confusion in a correct understanding of this word has led to continuing confusion amongst people who do not understand either Javanese or Indonesian, as well as people who are native speakers of Javanese.

Alam Shah · 28th May 2007, 03:01 AM

Thank you for the clarification.

To make matters worse, many old keris books are found with this translation error. Newer books which based on the old books as reference sources migrated the errors as well. If only these corrections can be made accordingly, that would ease the confusion (a little).

ganjawulung · 28th May 2007, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The pamor motif "buntel mayat" is named in the Javanese language.

The words used to name it must not be understood as Indonesian, but must be understood as Javanese.

In Indonesian "buntel mayat", and also "buntel mayit" both have the meaning of "corpse wrapping". The words "mayat" and "mayit" are simply variant pronunciations for "human corpse".

In Javanese "buntel mayit" has the meaning of "corpse wrapping".

In Javanese "buntel mayat" has the meaning of "slanted wrapping".

The word "mayat" has the alternative meaning of "slightly sloping", and in Old Javanese it meant "to work hard".

The name of the pamor motif is "buntel mayat", the language used is Javanese, not Indonesian, thus the meaning of "buntel mayat" is "slanted wrapping". This meaning perfectly describes the pamor to which it refers.

I believe it is important to clarify the way in which the word "mayat" must be understood. Confusion in a correct understanding of this word has led to continuing confusion amongst people who do not understand either Javanese or Indonesian, as well as people who are native speakers of Javanese.

Javanese language has much plasticity in its words. Though, usually Javanese words derived from reality, simple reality that everybody could imagine what the word to say about.

Relating to the topic in this thread, I still believed that the word "mayat" or "mayit" related to certain reality, daily reality. And that's the "corpse". The Javanese probably wanted to say, a "slanted pamor" as if you are wrapping a corpse. And look! Pamor "buntel mayit" shows that. The pamor is like "wrapping corpse" in a "slanted but continued wrapping". Am I wrong?

But that's true, maybe not the same treatment to another "mayat" using. I can not see yet, is there any correlation between "dhapur jangkung mayat" of luk 3 keris, and "mayat" or human dead body in the daily Javanese life...

Raden Usman Djogja · 28th May 2007, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In Javanese "buntel mayit" has the meaning of "corpse wrapping".

In Javanese "buntel mayat" has the meaning of "slanted wrapping".

The word "mayat" has the alternative meaning of "slightly sloping", and in Old Javanese it meant "to work hard".

Alan,

I agree that the pamor name is "bunthel mayat" rather than "bunthel mayit". And, "mayat" has far different intrinsic meaning from "mayit". "mayat" means hopeful while "mayit" means hopeless.

We can find the old keris with pamor motive of "bunthel mayit". At that time keris was made, Javanese people still burnt corpse. Perhaps, no Javanese wrapped corpse as today practices. So, the term of "bunthel mayit" came later, but, it led to recent fallacy amongst most keris lovers.

I still do not want to collect a keris with "bunthel mayat" motive. Not because I have bad perception to this pamor motive. I just dont want people look strange on me after watching my keris. The javanese people have unique ways to judge.

Two keris motives, I should think twice if I wanna buy: firstly, "bunthel mayit" and secondly, "umyang". About umyang, does anyone want to share its picture. I do really want to have but...yeah... I dont want most of my acquintances think that I have "pesugihan (translation in English please?).

Usmen

A. G. Maisey · 29th May 2007, 01:27 AM

I take the elements of this discussion to be:-

1. the correct name of the pamor in question

2. the correct meanings of words

3. the way in which those words are interpreted.

1. Correct name of the pamor.

In most, if not all recent publications this pamor name will be given as "buntel mayit":- "corpse wrapping".

More than twenty years ago I was told that this name is incorrect, and that the correct name is "buntel mayat":- "slanted wrapping".

I was told this by Empu Suparman Supawijaya (alm.), who at the time was a man in his 60's, whose experience with keris went back to before WWII, and who was a part of the Karaton Surakarta hierarchy.

In the matter of this correct name, I choose to believe my teacher, rather than to follow the popular trend.

I choose to do this for two reasons:-

A) I have absolute faith in my teacher's traditional knowledge.

B) The name "buntel mayat" is logically supportable, the name "buntel mayit" is poetically, or philosophically supportable. I prefer logic.

Apart from these two reasons, an argument for "buntel mayat" can also be built on a historical foundation, drawing upon the case of Lombok.

2. Correct word meanings.

In the Javanese language "mayat" means "slanted, or sloping", "mayit" means "human corpse".

There can be no dispute about this.

In Indonesian "mayat" and "mayit" both mean "human corpse".

There can be no dispute about this.

Keris terms are rendered in the Javanese language, not the Indonesian language.

If the pamor name is "corpse wrapping", it must be rendered as "buntel mayit".

If the pamor name is "slanted wrapping" it must be rendered as "buntel mayat".

The name cannot be rendered as "buntel mayat", and its English language meaning given as "corpse wrapping".

3. Interpretation of the pamor.

The words mayat and mayit are very close in sound, and in speech can probably only be differentiated by the listener when taken in context. Taken out of context it would be difficult for any but the most expert user of Javanese to differentiate one from the other.This similarity in sound is probably the root of the confusion, and taken together with the well known Javanese propensity to play with the spoken form of the language, and the poetic, symbolic, and philosophical factors inherrent in interpretation of the name as "buntel mayit", rather than "buntel mayat", it is easy to understand the foundation of the current interpretation of the name.

Interpretation in many matters, and this could be one of those matters, is always an individual prerogative.

If one wishes to interpret "slanted wrapping" as "corpse wrapping", then, that is a matter for that person, or those people.

However, if one wishes to name a pamor as "corpse wrapping", rather than "slanted wrapping", and one wishes to do this in the Javanese language, then one is obliged to use the words "buntel mayit", rather than "buntel mayat".

Newsteel · 29th May 2007, 02:22 AM

Good explaination,

Unike dapur, where it's pakem (blueprint) usually can be found within kratons. Pamor is totally a different thing.

Buntel Mayit/Mayat.... how can we be sure if one empu wants to call his pamor "corpse wrapping" and the other empu wants to name it "slanted wrapping"?

ganjawulung · 29th May 2007, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

...Interpretation in many matters, and this could be one of those matters, is always an individual prerogative.

If one wishes to interpret "slanted wrapping" as "corpse wrapping", then, that is a matter for that person, or those people.

However, if one wishes to name a pamor as "corpse wrapping", rather than "slanted wrapping", and one wishes to do this in the Javanese language, then one is obliged to use the words "buntel mayit", rather than "buntel mayat".

Bambang Harsrinuksmo: (In Ensiklopedi Keris)
Buntel Mayit or some people say it as Mbuntel Mayit is pamor motive (I am trying to translate) that forms like wrappings of clothes on the whole keris blade, spear, arrow or sword
It is said that Buntel Mayit has no good tuah (influence?) and bring unfortune to the owner. Though, it will be good for strong people. This pamor would even make him easier to get rezeki (good living?)..
Mr Bambang didn't mention the "buntel mayat"

Also Bambang Harsri's opinion:
Mayat in dhapur, means a keris which its blade position on its ganja is very slanted. (What Alan said is right)
But Mr Bambang wrote, that dhapur "mayat miring" or (slanted corpse? Maybe this is nonsense. Or slanted slanting?) is a name of straight dhapur which the position of its blade is very slanted to the ganja.. and so on.
So this dhapur bears two "adjective" (mayat means also miring or slanted) mayat and miring (slanted and slanted)..

Mr Haryono Guritno (in Keris Jawa)
He mentioned clearly in the "List of pamor names", buntel mayit as corpse wrapping. (Page 211). But he mentioned too in "List of Dhapur names" that mayat means "slanted transition but not at a sudden". He mentioned too, the dhapur "mayat miring" as a keris with a slanted blade..

This is from "Pakem Kacurigan" or "Keris Pakem" which was in Javanese language and published by Penerbit Sadubudi Solo (1938). It mentioned name of dhapur "mayat miring" as a name of slanted keris with one sogokan, one gusen. (page 11). And "dhapur mayat" as a 3 luks keris with sekar kacang, rear sogokan, sraweyan, ri pandhan, greneng.
"Pakem Kacurigan" also said: "Winastan pamor buntel mayit, .. etc" (It called as pamor buntel mayit, is a pamor that wrapping all the blade from one edge to another edge in the whole blade. (Not mention the "buntel mayat"..)

I just give this information to you, if not confusion...

A. G. Maisey · 29th May 2007, 07:07 AM

Yes, all this could easily lead to confusion, but its really quite simple if one applies analytical objectivity.

It becomes simply a matter of what one wishes to say, bearing in mind that the language that one's wish must be expressed in is Javanese.

Is the pamor name buntel mayit, or buntel mayat?

Well, all the sources that call it buntel mayit are recent, and I know of no literary sources that are sufficiently old for us to be able to say with any certainty that the original name is buntel mayat---or something different.

I guess it comes down to where one wishes to place one's trust.

However, one thing is very clear:- it cannot be called "buntel mayat", and the English meaning be given as "corpse wrapping".

Of course, the question remains as to why this same pamor should be regarded as a very positive one in Bali and Lombok, where it bears a different name. Even without my belief in Empu Suparman, were I to consider this contradiction in an objective fashion, I would be forced to the conclusion that the pamor motif entered Bali in ancient times, prior to the emergence of the Modern Javanese language taking hold in Jawa itself, and prior to the development of the present Javanese keris belief system.

Then again, perhaps we should ask ourselves why any Javanese empu would set out to produce a pamor that no sane person would have in his house.

Interesting fuel for thought.

ganjawulung · 29th May 2007, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

... Of course, the question remains as to why this same pamor should be regarded as a very positive one in Bali and Lombok, where it bears a different name. Even without my belief in Empu Suparman, were I to consider this contradiction in an objective fashion, I would be forced to the conclusion that the pamor motif entered Bali in ancient times, prior to the emergence of the Modern Javanese language taking hold in Jawa itself, and prior to the development of the present Javanese keris belief system.

Then again, perhaps we should ask ourselves why any Javanese empu would set out to produce a pamor that no sane person would have in his house.

Interesting fuel for thought.

This time, I remember Shakespeare's phrase of "What is in a name?" Buntel Mayit is "dreadful" for some Javanese people, but pamor "Tambangan" and "Tambangan Badung" (in Lombok, according to Lalu Djelenga's book for this same pamor) is very good for dignity and bravery, heroism... Maybe it was a matter of local sentiment, which based on history, or certain reality in the past that I don't know yet. Primordial matters? I don't know either..

At least, pamor Buntel Mayit (and pamorless "keleng") is the favorite pamor of my keris-friend, Gus Im or Mr Hashim Wahid, the "author" of punk rocker's keris. Of course, Gus Im is a Javanese...

Ganjawulung

David · 29th May 2007, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Then again, perhaps we should ask ourselves why any Javanese empu would set out to produce a pamor that no sane person would have in his house.

This is the question that i have always asked myself.
Ganja quotes Harsrinuksmo as saying "It is said that Buntel Mayit has no good tuah (influence?) and bring unfortune to the owner. Though, it will be good for strong people."
Firstly this is a contradiction. If it will be good for some strong people then it must have some good tuah. Why would anyone commission a keris to be made for themselves that would destroy them over time?
It seems very likely to me that the negative reputation this pamor has received in Jawa is due to a confusion and misunderstanding of words.

28th May 2007, 01:32 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	BUNTEL MAYAT Words have defined meanings, and where a word appears in two languages, but carries different meanings in those languages, it it easy for confusion to arise, especially where the two languages concerned are often used interchangeably by the speakers of those languages. Dictionaries can be useful in clarification of precisely what is meant in the context of subject matter and language usage. The pamor motif:- BUNTEL MAYAT, and the use of the word MAYAT. The pamor motif "buntel mayat" is named in the Javanese language. The words used to name it must not be understood as Indonesian, but must be understood as Javanese. In Indonesian "buntel mayat", and also "buntel mayit" both have the meaning of "corpse wrapping". The words "mayat" and "mayit" are simply variant pronunciations for "human corpse". In Javanese "buntel mayit" has the meaning of "corpse wrapping". In Javanese "buntel mayat" has the meaning of "slanted wrapping". The word "mayat" has the alternative meaning of "slightly sloping", and in Old Javanese it meant "to work hard". The name of the pamor motif is "buntel mayat", the language used is Javanese, not Indonesian, thus the meaning of "buntel mayat" is "slanted wrapping". This meaning perfectly describes the pamor to which it refers. When we are using the words of keris terminology, we are always using Javanese words, not Indonesian words. Sometimes a Javanese word will also be an Indonesian word, and sometimes the meaning of that word in Indonesian will be the same, or similar, to its meaning in Javanese. But this is not always the case. I believe it is important to clarify the way in which the word "mayat" must be understood. Confusion in a correct understanding of this word has led to continuing confusion amongst people who do not understand either Javanese or Indonesian, as well as people who are native speakers of Javanese.

28th May 2007, 03:01 AM	#2
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Thank you for the clarification. To make matters worse, many old keris books are found with this translation error. Newer books which based on the old books as reference sources migrated the errors as well. If only these corrections can be made accordingly, that would ease the confusion (a little). Last edited by Alam Shah; 28th May 2007 at 03:00 PM. Reason: grammar

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29th May 2007, 01:27 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	I take the elements of this discussion to be:- 1. the correct name of the pamor in question 2. the correct meanings of words 3. the way in which those words are interpreted. 1. Correct name of the pamor. In most, if not all recent publications this pamor name will be given as "buntel mayit":- "corpse wrapping". More than twenty years ago I was told that this name is incorrect, and that the correct name is "buntel mayat":- "slanted wrapping". I was told this by Empu Suparman Supawijaya (alm.), who at the time was a man in his 60's, whose experience with keris went back to before WWII, and who was a part of the Karaton Surakarta hierarchy. In the matter of this correct name, I choose to believe my teacher, rather than to follow the popular trend. I choose to do this for two reasons:- A) I have absolute faith in my teacher's traditional knowledge. B) The name "buntel mayat" is logically supportable, the name "buntel mayit" is poetically, or philosophically supportable. I prefer logic. Apart from these two reasons, an argument for "buntel mayat" can also be built on a historical foundation, drawing upon the case of Lombok. 2. Correct word meanings. In the Javanese language "mayat" means "slanted, or sloping", "mayit" means "human corpse". There can be no dispute about this. In Indonesian "mayat" and "mayit" both mean "human corpse". There can be no dispute about this. Keris terms are rendered in the Javanese language, not the Indonesian language. If the pamor name is "corpse wrapping", it must be rendered as "buntel mayit". If the pamor name is "slanted wrapping" it must be rendered as "buntel mayat". The name cannot be rendered as "buntel mayat", and its English language meaning given as "corpse wrapping". 3. Interpretation of the pamor. The words mayat and mayit are very close in sound, and in speech can probably only be differentiated by the listener when taken in context. Taken out of context it would be difficult for any but the most expert user of Javanese to differentiate one from the other.This similarity in sound is probably the root of the confusion, and taken together with the well known Javanese propensity to play with the spoken form of the language, and the poetic, symbolic, and philosophical factors inherrent in interpretation of the name as "buntel mayit", rather than "buntel mayat", it is easy to understand the foundation of the current interpretation of the name. Interpretation in many matters, and this could be one of those matters, is always an individual prerogative. If one wishes to interpret "slanted wrapping" as "corpse wrapping", then, that is a matter for that person, or those people. However, if one wishes to name a pamor as "corpse wrapping", rather than "slanted wrapping", and one wishes to do this in the Javanese language, then one is obliged to use the words "buntel mayit", rather than "buntel mayat".

29th May 2007, 02:22 AM	#6
Newsteel Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 132	Good explaination, Unike dapur, where it's pakem (blueprint) usually can be found within kratons. Pamor is totally a different thing. Buntel Mayit/Mayat.... how can we be sure if one empu wants to call his pamor "corpse wrapping" and the other empu wants to name it "slanted wrapping"?

29th May 2007, 07:07 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Yes, all this could easily lead to confusion, but its really quite simple if one applies analytical objectivity. It becomes simply a matter of what one wishes to say, bearing in mind that the language that one's wish must be expressed in is Javanese. Is the pamor name buntel mayit, or buntel mayat? Well, all the sources that call it buntel mayit are recent, and I know of no literary sources that are sufficiently old for us to be able to say with any certainty that the original name is buntel mayat---or something different. I guess it comes down to where one wishes to place one's trust. However, one thing is very clear:- it cannot be called "buntel mayat", and the English meaning be given as "corpse wrapping". Of course, the question remains as to why this same pamor should be regarded as a very positive one in Bali and Lombok, where it bears a different name. Even without my belief in Empu Suparman, were I to consider this contradiction in an objective fashion, I would be forced to the conclusion that the pamor motif entered Bali in ancient times, prior to the emergence of the Modern Javanese language taking hold in Jawa itself, and prior to the development of the present Javanese keris belief system. Then again, perhaps we should ask ourselves why any Javanese empu would set out to produce a pamor that no sane person would have in his house. Interesting fuel for thought.