Keris for comment

Lew · 2nd October 2006, 06:48 AM

Greetings All

Don't ask me why I waste my time writing to these sellers on ebay

Maybe it's just my good nature and the need to spread a bit of knowlege. I spotted this keris on ebay last week and wrote to the seller who is a power seller on ebay. I told him what I thought of his keris saying if he was a power seller this would effect his reputation on ebay for selling this type of product. Well I don't have to tell you I received a negative response from him. As you can plainly see his keris is a tourist quality Bali keris with an acid applied pamor. The ganya seems to be one piece the blade does not even look forged to shape it looks to be cut out from sheet steel. The seller gave me permission to post the keris on the forum I guess he does not want to hear that his keris is not the real deal. So please lets hear some opinions on this keris. Btw here is an exerpt of thhis email giving me permission to post.

You have my permission to post a picture of this item wherever you wish. In the meantime, a local collector who DOES know what he is talking about is close to consummating purchase of this excellent item.

Lew

kai · 2nd October 2006, 08:54 AM

What a waste of wood!

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 2nd October 2006, 10:20 AM

I thank you, Lew, and the seller for the opportunity to comment in a public Forum on this item.

Regretably, the keris is a very specialised field of study and collecting. I have now been involved in this study for over 50 years, but I doubt that anything like this period of time would be required for somebody with even the most rudimentary knowledge of the keris to recognise exactly what we are looking at in respect of the item of which you have posted a picture.

I cannot in good conscience call this item a keris.
It is a keris-like object.
It is the type of thing that is sold to tourists as a souvenir of Bali.
It has the general form of a keris, but I believe the blade will be found to have been formed by being partially cut and partially forged from a piece of homogenous steel, the imitation pamor pattern has almost certainly been achieved by partially masking the blade with wax and then staining the exposed steel, the wax then being removed with boiling water.

The scabbard and handle appear to be of sono wood, and the quality of the carving is abysmal.This carving is the sort of thing that is done by young children who are just beginning to learn the craft.

This object cannot be dignified by calling it a keris.

It is a keris-like souvenir.

As a memento of a holiday in Bali, or as an ornament on the wall behind a bar, it has worth. As an item in a collection of keris or eastern edged weapons it has no place or value at all.

Pusaka · 2nd October 2006, 02:47 PM

Hmmm…….The force is strong in this one

David · 2nd October 2006, 03:15 PM

LOL!!!

Lew, i think i'm a bit like you. Sometimes when i contact these guys they actually are thankful because they didn't really know any better. Sometimes you get a guy like this, who really does know but wants to pretend otherwise. I actually had a rather detailed back and forth with this guy over this very keris the LAST time he tried to sell this piece of crap. He basically assured me it was not only the real deal, but a very powerful JAVANESE keris according to his own knowledgeable Javanese friends. So powerful that when he took it out to show them the guy's wife had to leave the room.

He told me that he would bet me $4000 (to the charity of my choice) if i was correct, but of course he is not willing to put it to the test. I challenged him to post it here and i think it is funny that it found it's way here afterall.

Yes, i think "keris-like object" desribes this item best. To actually call it a keris is an insult to a great art and culture.

Alam Shah · 2nd October 2006, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

LOL!!!

... He basically assured me it was not only the real deal, but a very powerful JAVANESE keris according to his own knowledgeable Javanese friends. So powerful that when he took it out to show them the guy's wife had to leave the room.

Probably the wiser wife was thinking... what a piece of crap...

[QUOTE=David]He told me that he would bet me $4000 (to the charity of my choice) if i was correct, but of course he is not willing to put it to the test. I challenged him to post it here and i think it is funny that it found it's way here afterall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Yes, i think "keris-like object" desribes this item best.

A nicer and polite way of describing the item.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

To actually call it a keris is an insult to a great art and culture.

Precisely. If this is the quality of keris, I guess we'll be off collecting other stuffs.

Fortunately, it is not. So here we are commenting and discussing, as usual.

ignorant_aussie · 3rd October 2006, 07:28 PM

Against my better judgement I am visiting this rather incestuous site to dispel a few misconceptions.
Since posting the auction of a keris on ebay I have been called variously "gullable"(sic. - I guess that should be "gullible")); "an idiot" and a "con man"; and I feel it's time to respond.
Admittedly the images on my site were not brilliant; but they were certainly a lot clearer than the ones posted on this blog. However, based solely on the photograph I have received "expert" advice that the pamor pattern on the blade has been (1) painted on , or (2) etched on.
I am no metallurgist; but it seems to me that it would be extremely hard to fake layers of different metals that go intrinsically right through the blade, and whose borders can be clearly seen where the different layers meet the edge.
I don't profess to knowledge of kerises, but being somewhat familiar with the provenance of this item I will gladly buy all the ones of this quality that site members assure me can be purchased for $10.00. The workmanship in setting the different coloured sections of jahti wood is of a very high standard, and the carving of figures which I take to be Hindu is excellent.
This kris was brought back to Australia by a United Nations policeman over 40 years ago. (Other items he brought back include a carved bone blowpipe from Borneo which I feel sure your members will tell me is plastic, and a Dayak hair comb which no doubt was bought in Wal-Mart. There are also two statues which just cannot be found today; but again I'm sure I'll be informed that these were run up in a backstreet in Denpasar.)
I have shown this item to a native Indonesian whose brother is a respected dukun, and who confirms the authenticity. His guess is that the keris was confiscated, as no owner would part with a family one for mere money.
I have since sold the keris to a local collector who is extremely happy with his purchase.
So in the one corner we have an Indonesian who has a deep knowledge of the keris and who has inspected the physical item; and in the other we have someone whose credentials are unknown to me but who tells me on the basis of a photo that the intrinsic pattern has been painted on a single sheet of metal, and I have to decide which one to believe - gee whiz, that's a tough decision!!
I note in passing that someone has posted photos on this thread which have nothing to do with the item under discussion.
(Incidentally, the 'peanut' to whom I refer is someone who kept popping up on my ebay auctions like a bad cold).
In closing, I agree that Balinese copies are extant - of course they are; but the point that all you learned gentlemen seem to miss is "What are they copies of?" There have to be some originals that are themselves copied, and that is the case here.

Ian · 3rd October 2006, 09:11 PM

The above thread by "ignorant_aussie" has passed through the Moderation Queue for new members and is listed here in fairness to the person who is the subject of some of the discussion here. In keeping with the Rules of this Forum, we expect that the discussion with "ignorant_aussie" will be respectful and free from personal attacks or counter attacks.

Ian.

Rick · 3rd October 2006, 09:41 PM

You all have had your say concerning the item in question and now the Seller has had his.
People will believe what they want to believe; you don't educate anyone with a bludgeon.

I offer my personal apologies to the Gentleman for allowing this to happen in the Warung.
May we all profit in some way from this experience .

I am of a mind to close this thread unless someone here can give me a sound reason not to.

Anyone ?

Rick

ignorant_aussie · 3rd October 2006, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

You all have had your say concerning the item in question and now the Seller has had his.
People will believe what they want to believe; you don't educate anyone with a bludgeon.

I offer my personal apologies to the Gentleman for allowing this to happen in the Warung.
May we all profit in some way from this experience .

I am of a mind to close this thread unless someone here can give me a sound reason not to.

Anyone ?

Rick

Apologies accepted. As with any discussion/debate your members have the right of rebuttal, and I welcome any meaningful comment.

Rick · 4th October 2006, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ignorant_aussie

Apologies accepted. As with any discussion/debate your members have the right of rebuttal, and I welcome any meaningful comment.

All meaningful comment that could be made has been made.

If you choose to ignore the accumulated decades of knowledge in this forum then that is your affair Sir.

We bid you farewell .

ignorant_aussie · 3rd October 2006, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

The above thread by "ignorant_aussie" has passed through the Moderation Queue for new members and is listed here in fairness to the person who is the subject of some of the discussion here. In keeping with the Rules of this Forum, we expect that the discussion with "ignorant_aussie" will be respectful and free from personal attacks or counter attacks.

Ian.

My congratulations for having the editorial honesty to publish my thread 'in toto'.

2nd October 2006, 06:48 AM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Keris for comment Greetings All Don't ask me why I waste my time writing to these sellers on ebay Maybe it's just my good nature and the need to spread a bit of knowlege. I spotted this keris on ebay last week and wrote to the seller who is a power seller on ebay. I told him what I thought of his keris saying if he was a power seller this would effect his reputation on ebay for selling this type of product. Well I don't have to tell you I received a negative response from him. As you can plainly see his keris is a tourist quality Bali keris with an acid applied pamor. The ganya seems to be one piece the blade does not even look forged to shape it looks to be cut out from sheet steel. The seller gave me permission to post the keris on the forum I guess he does not want to hear that his keris is not the real deal. So please lets hear some opinions on this keris. Btw here is an exerpt of thhis email giving me permission to post. You have my permission to post a picture of this item wherever you wish. In the meantime, a local collector who DOES know what he is talking about is close to consummating purchase of this excellent item. Lew Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 2nd October 2006 at 09:23 PM.

3rd October 2006, 07:28 PM	#7
ignorant_aussie Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 3	The True Picture Against my better judgement I am visiting this rather incestuous site to dispel a few misconceptions. Since posting the auction of a keris on ebay I have been called variously "gullable"(sic. - I guess that should be "gullible")); "an idiot" and a "con man"; and I feel it's time to respond. Admittedly the images on my site were not brilliant; but they were certainly a lot clearer than the ones posted on this blog. However, based solely on the photograph I have received "expert" advice that the pamor pattern on the blade has been (1) painted on , or (2) etched on. I am no metallurgist; but it seems to me that it would be extremely hard to fake layers of different metals that go intrinsically right through the blade, and whose borders can be clearly seen where the different layers meet the edge. I don't profess to knowledge of kerises, but being somewhat familiar with the provenance of this item I will gladly buy all the ones of this quality that site members assure me can be purchased for $10.00. The workmanship in setting the different coloured sections of jahti wood is of a very high standard, and the carving of figures which I take to be Hindu is excellent. This kris was brought back to Australia by a United Nations policeman over 40 years ago. (Other items he brought back include a carved bone blowpipe from Borneo which I feel sure your members will tell me is plastic, and a Dayak hair comb which no doubt was bought in Wal-Mart. There are also two statues which just cannot be found today; but again I'm sure I'll be informed that these were run up in a backstreet in Denpasar.) I have shown this item to a native Indonesian whose brother is a respected dukun, and who confirms the authenticity. His guess is that the keris was confiscated, as no owner would part with a family one for mere money. I have since sold the keris to a local collector who is extremely happy with his purchase. So in the one corner we have an Indonesian who has a deep knowledge of the keris and who has inspected the physical item; and in the other we have someone whose credentials are unknown to me but who tells me on the basis of a photo that the intrinsic pattern has been painted on a single sheet of metal, and I have to decide which one to believe - gee whiz, that's a tough decision!! I note in passing that someone has posted photos on this thread which have nothing to do with the item under discussion. (Incidentally, the 'peanut' to whom I refer is someone who kept popping up on my ebay auctions like a bad cold). In closing, I agree that Balinese copies are extant - of course they are; but the point that all you learned gentlemen seem to miss is "What are they copies of?" There have to be some originals that are themselves copied, and that is the case here.

3rd October 2006, 09:11 PM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,253	Moderator's Note The above thread by "ignorant_aussie" has passed through the Moderation Queue for new members and is listed here in fairness to the person who is the subject of some of the discussion here. In keeping with the Rules of this Forum, we expect that the discussion with "ignorant_aussie" will be respectful and free from personal attacks or counter attacks. Ian.

3rd October 2006, 09:41 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,300	Another Moderator's Note You all have had your say concerning the item in question and now the Seller has had his. People will believe what they want to believe; you don't educate anyone with a bludgeon. I offer my personal apologies to the Gentleman for allowing this to happen in the Warung. May we all profit in some way from this experience . I am of a mind to close this thread unless someone here can give me a sound reason not to. Anyone ? Rick

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2nd October 2006, 08:54 AM	#2
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	What a waste of wood! Regards, Kai

2nd October 2006, 10:20 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,924	I thank you, Lew, and the seller for the opportunity to comment in a public Forum on this item. Regretably, the keris is a very specialised field of study and collecting. I have now been involved in this study for over 50 years, but I doubt that anything like this period of time would be required for somebody with even the most rudimentary knowledge of the keris to recognise exactly what we are looking at in respect of the item of which you have posted a picture. I cannot in good conscience call this item a keris. It is a keris-like object. It is the type of thing that is sold to tourists as a souvenir of Bali. It has the general form of a keris, but I believe the blade will be found to have been formed by being partially cut and partially forged from a piece of homogenous steel, the imitation pamor pattern has almost certainly been achieved by partially masking the blade with wax and then staining the exposed steel, the wax then being removed with boiling water. The scabbard and handle appear to be of sono wood, and the quality of the carving is abysmal.This carving is the sort of thing that is done by young children who are just beginning to learn the craft. This object cannot be dignified by calling it a keris. It is a keris-like souvenir. As a memento of a holiday in Bali, or as an ornament on the wall behind a bar, it has worth. As an item in a collection of keris or eastern edged weapons it has no place or value at all.

2nd October 2006, 02:47 PM	#4
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Hmmm…….The force is strong in this one

2nd October 2006, 03:15 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,162	LOL!!! Lew, i think i'm a bit like you. Sometimes when i contact these guys they actually are thankful because they didn't really know any better. Sometimes you get a guy like this, who really does know but wants to pretend otherwise. I actually had a rather detailed back and forth with this guy over this very keris the LAST time he tried to sell this piece of crap. He basically assured me it was not only the real deal, but a very powerful JAVANESE keris according to his own knowledgeable Javanese friends. So powerful that when he took it out to show them the guy's wife had to leave the room. He told me that he would bet me $4000 (to the charity of my choice) if i was correct, but of course he is not willing to put it to the test. I challenged him to post it here and i think it is funny that it found it's way here afterall. Yes, i think "keris-like object" desribes this item best. To actually call it a keris is an insult to a great art and culture.