18th Century Zoomporhic Shamshir

vilhelmsson · 21st October 2019, 12:08 AM

Hello,

I picked up this sword recently. It was offered as an 18th century Indian shamshir.

I wanted to solicit the thoughts of the forum about what it's purpose is, and if anyone was familiar with the very faded mark on the blade? And is 18th century right?

The iron work on the elephant is somewhat rudimentary. It feels small in the hand and the handle is somewhat small. At first, I thought it might be a child's sword. But the actual size of the blade is similar in size to a very serious tulwar that I have, though the tulwar has the more substantial feel of a weapon.

I wonder if it might be a piece meant for the 18th century domestic tourist market, maybe marketed to Hindu pilgrims?

I have not examined the organic material in the pommel under a microscope, but it was marketed as bone.

ariel · 21st October 2019, 01:40 AM

The blade looks wootz-y to me, and there is no Indian ricasso: Persian?

Polish a small area and etch it gently. Shiva and Ahuramazda willing you might be pleasantly surprised.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 21st October 2019, 07:53 AM

It looks suspiciously like a wootz blade in my view...

In addition the cartouche now almost completely obliterated looks like an Assad Ullah style for which you may like to look at http://auctionsimperial.com/om-the-p...f-assad-allah/

I find the ears of the elephant a bit strange as they look likely to cut into the sword hand..and the finials look peculiar since they appear to be inverted. Odd that the hilt has a chunk of bone added ...I wonder is this hilt largely added to and played with...?

vilhelmsson · 21st October 2019, 11:39 PM

Ariel and Ibrahiim,

You both have a good eye, or at least good intuition. I received a few things after this that I was a bit more excited about, and I forgot about my initial thoughts on looking at it. The blade does look like on wootz on close examination in some parts.

I think I'll have to polish and etch a small portion, soon.

Assad Ullah style might be too optimistic, and this cartouche seems to be more angular and less round than Assad Ullah's.

The ears are not uncomfortable in the hand; they taper well. I didn't provide a good shot of the finials, but I think they are supposed to look like the bottom half of an elephant's open mouth. At least that was my impression when I saw them in person. The workmanship on the hilt is not going to make it into the next edition of Hindu Arms and Ritual!

I think I need to take another look at how the hilt is assembled and to what extent it is original.

mariusgmioc · 22nd October 2019, 12:10 AM

Indian shamshir blades rarely present the characteristic Indian ricasso. That is a characteristic of the tulwar blades. However, this blade a ppears to have a rudimentary Indian ricasso.

In my oppinion this is an Indian, not Persian blade.

Why?! It is wider at the ricasso than the typical Persian blade.
Connected to the wider ricasso is the more tapering of the blade towards the tip.

So, to my eyes, this looks like a transition blade between a classic shamshir shape and that of a tulwar.

Also the location of the inscriptions appears to be lower, more towards the tip, and is not of typical Persian shape.

With regards to the hilt, I believe it to be a more recent, very poor, touristy, replacement. Late 19th century, but most likely early 20th...

Why?! The blade is not hilted properly. The ricasso does not go up inside the hilt, but it ends up right before the hilt, meaning that at the joint zone the blade is only supported by the narrow tang and very prone to breakage. So, in the condition it is fit now, this blade cannot serve as a fighting weapon.

My two cents...

vilhelmsson · 22nd October 2019, 12:42 AM

Thank you Marius. And I have your etching guide bookmarked.

I must shamefully admit that the poor hilt is what caught my touristy eye

Do you have any thoughts on whether it was intended for domestic Indian tourists versus international tourists? I think we're far enough removed from the early 20th century that this isn't self-evident from it being offered for auction in Europe.

For the price I paid, I'm satisfied with an older, wootzy blade and a late kitschy (at best) hilt.

Your two cents shall be deposited in an interest bearing account of knowledge! In the meantime, I will try not to get into any sword fights. With this sword.

21st October 2019, 12:08 AM	#1
vilhelmsson Member Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: Bay Area Posts: 57	18th Century Zoomporhic Shamshir Hello, I picked up this sword recently. It was offered as an 18th century Indian shamshir. I wanted to solicit the thoughts of the forum about what it's purpose is, and if anyone was familiar with the very faded mark on the blade? And is 18th century right? The iron work on the elephant is somewhat rudimentary. It feels small in the hand and the handle is somewhat small. At first, I thought it might be a child's sword. But the actual size of the blade is similar in size to a very serious tulwar that I have, though the tulwar has the more substantial feel of a weapon. I wonder if it might be a piece meant for the 18th century domestic tourist market, maybe marketed to Hindu pilgrims? I have not examined the organic material in the pommel under a microscope, but it was marketed as bone. Attached Images

21st October 2019, 01:40 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The blade looks wootz-y to me, and there is no Indian ricasso: Persian? Polish a small area and etch it gently. Shiva and Ahuramazda willing you might be pleasantly surprised. Last edited by ariel; 21st October 2019 at 04:55 AM.

21st October 2019, 07:53 AM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	It looks suspiciously like a wootz blade in my view... In addition the cartouche now almost completely obliterated looks like an Assad Ullah style for which you may like to look at http://auctionsimperial.com/om-the-p...f-assad-allah/ I find the ears of the elephant a bit strange as they look likely to cut into the sword hand..and the finials look peculiar since they appear to be inverted. Odd that the hilt has a chunk of bone added ...I wonder is this hilt largely added to and played with...? Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 21st October 2019 at 11:47 AM.

22nd October 2019, 12:10 AM	#5
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Indian shamshir blades rarely present the characteristic Indian ricasso. That is a characteristic of the tulwar blades. However, this blade a ppears to have a rudimentary Indian ricasso. In my oppinion this is an Indian, not Persian blade. Why?! It is wider at the ricasso than the typical Persian blade. Connected to the wider ricasso is the more tapering of the blade towards the tip. So, to my eyes, this looks like a transition blade between a classic shamshir shape and that of a tulwar. Also the location of the inscriptions appears to be lower, more towards the tip, and is not of typical Persian shape. With regards to the hilt, I believe it to be a more recent, very poor, touristy, replacement. Late 19th century, but most likely early 20th... Why?! The blade is not hilted properly. The ricasso does not go up inside the hilt, but it ends up right before the hilt, meaning that at the joint zone the blade is only supported by the narrow tang and very prone to breakage. So, in the condition it is fit now, this blade cannot serve as a fighting weapon. My two cents... Last edited by mariusgmioc; 22nd October 2019 at 12:25 AM.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

21st October 2019, 11:39 PM	#4
vilhelmsson Member Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: Bay Area Posts: 57	Ariel and Ibrahiim, You both have a good eye, or at least good intuition. I received a few things after this that I was a bit more excited about, and I forgot about my initial thoughts on looking at it. The blade does look like on wootz on close examination in some parts. I think I'll have to polish and etch a small portion, soon. Assad Ullah style might be too optimistic, and this cartouche seems to be more angular and less round than Assad Ullah's. The ears are not uncomfortable in the hand; they taper well. I didn't provide a good shot of the finials, but I think they are supposed to look like the bottom half of an elephant's open mouth. At least that was my impression when I saw them in person. The workmanship on the hilt is not going to make it into the next edition of Hindu Arms and Ritual! I think I need to take another look at how the hilt is assembled and to what extent it is original.

22nd October 2019, 12:42 AM	#6
vilhelmsson Member Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: Bay Area Posts: 57	Thank you Marius. And I have your etching guide bookmarked. I must shamefully admit that the poor hilt is what caught my touristy eye Do you have any thoughts on whether it was intended for domestic Indian tourists versus international tourists? I think we're far enough removed from the early 20th century that this isn't self-evident from it being offered for auction in Europe. For the price I paid, I'm satisfied with an older, wootzy blade and a late kitschy (at best) hilt. Your two cents shall be deposited in an interest bearing account of knowledge! In the meantime, I will try not to get into any sword fights. With this sword.