Strange ottoman handles

ariel · 12th February 2018, 04:11 AM

I am back from Milan.
At your suggestions I went to Museo Poldi Pezzoli.
They have very small collection of Oriental weapons, some of which were very nice.
However, I got confused: several Ottoman kilijes had very strange handles: very translucent, with pink tint.
I asked their staff, one told me that they were made from mother of pearl, which is very suspicious: I have never seen this material on turkish weapons. It would be grossly impractical. Moreover they were very thick, grossly exceeding the usual thickness of the mother of pearl, and the tint was very unusual. The other staff member pulled out a book, in which they were listed as horn. Also strange: horn never gets THAT translucent ( I could easily see the tang). One was clearly made of horn and labeled as such. You can easily pinpoint it on the pics.

I made several pics of them: very repetitious, but I wanted to give you the best chance. Pics were made through glass window.

I asked them whether they were new, made of some kind of plastic. The answer was " no way!", but their restorer happened to pass away last year and no direct info was available.. Please pay attention that the two most suspicious examples had no brass ring around the knot hole.

What do you think?

Ian · 12th February 2018, 07:12 AM

Ariel,

I don't think translucent horn is all that uncommon. Albino horn in particular can be quite translucent. I have a siwar with an albino horn sheath and it is possible to see the blade easily through the horn. I don't recall seeing a pink tinge to albino horn, but that may vary with the species I suppose or with treatment of the horn.

Ian.

mariusgmioc · 12th February 2018, 03:02 PM

Very interesting but from the photos is impossible to form an educated opinion.

The hilts get damaged quite easily and I wouldn't dismiss the possibility they were replaced/restored with some kind of resin/plastic... since rhino horn was not available.

ariel · 12th February 2018, 04:53 PM

Thanks to both of you. Just as I expected: different opinions.....

Ian:
I have never seen so translucent handles on Ottoman swords, and finding several in the same collection would be statistically difficult if not impossible. They are shimmering, just like mother of pearl.

Marius:

Yes, the pics are lousy, but with the available light and a thick glass between us that was the best I could do.
I have bigger pics, but they exceed the limit for posting. If anyone can put them on, I shall be glad to e-mail the pics, just give me the address.

Also, the only definitely original horn handle has a properly wide hole for the knot cord , but almost all of the "pearly" ones have minuscule holes; no cord would pass through them. Another problem is with the rivets: there usually were 2-3 rivets on the grip. Here we see one on the grip, and another on the head ( in some), the rightmost kilij has no rivets whatsoever, just the knot cord one, also quite thin.
The more I look , the more I wonder: one strange feature after another...

kronckew · 12th February 2018, 06:10 PM

I have no idea what this animal is, but it's got distinctly pink horns

edited: it's a Saiga antelope from Kazakhstan. Used to be found further west and south into the Caucasian mountains...protected now. They moult twice a year, summer coat is light brown & winter almost white.

From wiki: Only males possess horns. These horns, thick and slightly translucent, are wax-coloured. (i thought 'wax' was not a colour)

ariel · 12th February 2018, 09:06 PM

The similarity of the material and the riveting make me believe that most if not all handles were made at the same time and in the same shop.

Roland_M · 13th February 2018, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

What do you think?

Hello Ariel,

Well observed, I also think the handles are in much too good condition for 200 years or more.

No obvious cracks, nothing is splintered, no wormholes.

These handles are probably not the original ones.

Roland

12th February 2018, 04:11 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Strange ottoman handles I am back from Milan. At your suggestions I went to Museo Poldi Pezzoli. They have very small collection of Oriental weapons, some of which were very nice. However, I got confused: several Ottoman kilijes had very strange handles: very translucent, with pink tint. I asked their staff, one told me that they were made from mother of pearl, which is very suspicious: I have never seen this material on turkish weapons. It would be grossly impractical. Moreover they were very thick, grossly exceeding the usual thickness of the mother of pearl, and the tint was very unusual. The other staff member pulled out a book, in which they were listed as horn. Also strange: horn never gets THAT translucent ( I could easily see the tang). One was clearly made of horn and labeled as such. You can easily pinpoint it on the pics. I made several pics of them: very repetitious, but I wanted to give you the best chance. Pics were made through glass window. I asked them whether they were new, made of some kind of plastic. The answer was " no way!", but their restorer happened to pass away last year and no direct info was available.. Please pay attention that the two most suspicious examples had no brass ring around the knot hole. What do you think? Attached Images

12th February 2018, 06:10 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,181	I have no idea what this animal is, but it's got distinctly pink horns edited: it's a Saiga antelope from Kazakhstan. Used to be found further west and south into the Caucasian mountains...protected now. They moult twice a year, summer coat is light brown & winter almost white. From wiki: Only males possess horns. These horns, thick and slightly translucent, are wax-coloured. (i thought 'wax' was not a colour) Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 12th February 2018 at 06:21 PM.

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12th February 2018, 07:12 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Ariel, I don't think translucent horn is all that uncommon. Albino horn in particular can be quite translucent. I have a siwar with an albino horn sheath and it is possible to see the blade easily through the horn. I don't recall seeing a pink tinge to albino horn, but that may vary with the species I suppose or with treatment of the horn. Ian.

12th February 2018, 03:02 PM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Very interesting but from the photos is impossible to form an educated opinion. The hilts get damaged quite easily and I wouldn't dismiss the possibility they were replaced/restored with some kind of resin/plastic... since rhino horn was not available.

12th February 2018, 04:53 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks to both of you. Just as I expected: different opinions..... Ian: I have never seen so translucent handles on Ottoman swords, and finding several in the same collection would be statistically difficult if not impossible. They are shimmering, just like mother of pearl. Marius: Yes, the pics are lousy, but with the available light and a thick glass between us that was the best I could do. I have bigger pics, but they exceed the limit for posting. If anyone can put them on, I shall be glad to e-mail the pics, just give me the address. Also, the only definitely original horn handle has a properly wide hole for the knot cord , but almost all of the "pearly" ones have minuscule holes; no cord would pass through them. Another problem is with the rivets: there usually were 2-3 rivets on the grip. Here we see one on the grip, and another on the head ( in some), the rightmost kilij has no rivets whatsoever, just the knot cord one, also quite thin. The more I look , the more I wonder: one strange feature after another...

12th February 2018, 09:06 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The similarity of the material and the riveting make me believe that most if not all handles were made at the same time and in the same shop.