Chinese saber guards - forged or cast?

KuKulzA28 · 23rd January 2015, 11:50 PM

A question occurred to me recently...

Were Chinese saber/dao guards forged or cast?
I know typically there were iron or brass, yes?
Disc-shaped, rectangular, dish, S-shaped quillons...
Did it vary based on material or guard shape?

David R · 23rd January 2015, 11:56 PM

Dao or Dadao? I have an old Dao and the disk guard is soldered up from sheet, I have just bought a Dadao (not arrived yet) and the guard looks to be cast from iron.

Timo Nieminen · 24th January 2015, 12:24 AM

Iron guards, whether disc/cup, S, knucklebow, or other, are typically forged. I haven't seen a cast antique iron guard. (Not surprising, since you don't want to cast it from cast iron (too brittle), and forging is easier/more economical unless you cast straight from your blast furnace (which gives you cast iron), in the traditional Chinese iron industry.) Some modern (e.g., c. 1900) cup guards look like they're cut from sheet steel, and just have the edge folded over (which you could call cold forging, but you might not want to call forging at all).

Brass guards are usually cast, possibly with some forging/grinding/filing.

I've seen a bronze guard that look forged.

Iron/steel=forged, brass=cast is usual for pre-modern swords. These days, we see modern sword fittings of iron/steel that are cast (and, sad to say, sometimes even cast from cast iron - I broke one of those into tiny pieces). Now we're starting to see them being 3D-printed.

KuKulzA28 · 27th January 2015, 12:40 AM

Great thanks for the replies. That's what I suspected.

Perhaps this is why most reproductions today, even good ones, mainly use brass fittings...

Timo Nieminen · 27th January 2015, 10:47 PM

Don't know about most repros. The cheap ones (and there are lots of those) often use zinc-aluminium alloy (even easier to cast - lower melting point, flows well). Possibly brass is still more common. For Medieval European repros, cast steel might be most common, and for Japanese repros, cast zinc-aluminium alloy is most common. European complex hilts are often fabricated from bar and/or sheet (or cast brass).

Whatever is used, there's a definite move away from forging compared to historical methods. It's a replacement of skill by technology.

Another reason to use brass: fancy Chinese fittings will often be carved. Brass, being softer, is easier to carve. Cheap fancy fittings can be cast and just cleaned up a little (or on cheap and nasty ones, not even cleaned up, just left with flash and all). Fancy zinc-aluminium can be too weak. Fancy is relatively easy with brass.

KuKulzA28 · 28th January 2015, 01:53 AM

I see I see... too bad there doesn't seem to be as much demand for plain iron disc guards on reproductions, would much rather have that (personally) than a fancy brass one - but I can appreciate the artistry, and I can see why people like them.

Typically Chinese dao had tangs running all the way through even through a hole in the pommel and then peened, right?
I remember taking apart a modern repro which had a nut screwed on to tighten the handle/tang relationship and then a pommel fitted and glued on. Pommel came off with heavy use.

Studying Chinese saberplay, I can see the usefulness in a strong disc guard, though techniques don't involve much emphasis on the bind or catching of weapons.

I must get myself a good antique dao to study one of these days.

23rd January 2015, 11:50 PM	#1
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Chinese saber guards - forged or cast? A question occurred to me recently... Were Chinese saber/dao guards forged or cast? I know typically there were iron or brass, yes? Disc-shaped, rectangular, dish, S-shaped quillons... Did it vary based on material or guard shape?

23rd January 2015, 11:56 PM	#2
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Dao or Dadao? I have an old Dao and the disk guard is soldered up from sheet, I have just bought a Dadao (not arrived yet) and the guard looks to be cast from iron. Attached Images

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24th January 2015, 12:24 AM	#3
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	Iron guards, whether disc/cup, S, knucklebow, or other, are typically forged. I haven't seen a cast antique iron guard. (Not surprising, since you don't want to cast it from cast iron (too brittle), and forging is easier/more economical unless you cast straight from your blast furnace (which gives you cast iron), in the traditional Chinese iron industry.) Some modern (e.g., c. 1900) cup guards look like they're cut from sheet steel, and just have the edge folded over (which you could call cold forging, but you might not want to call forging at all). Brass guards are usually cast, possibly with some forging/grinding/filing. I've seen a bronze guard that look forged. Iron/steel=forged, brass=cast is usual for pre-modern swords. These days, we see modern sword fittings of iron/steel that are cast (and, sad to say, sometimes even cast from cast iron - I broke one of those into tiny pieces). Now we're starting to see them being 3D-printed.

27th January 2015, 12:40 AM	#4
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Great thanks for the replies. That's what I suspected. Perhaps this is why most reproductions today, even good ones, mainly use brass fittings...

27th January 2015, 10:47 PM	#5
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	Don't know about most repros. The cheap ones (and there are lots of those) often use zinc-aluminium alloy (even easier to cast - lower melting point, flows well). Possibly brass is still more common. For Medieval European repros, cast steel might be most common, and for Japanese repros, cast zinc-aluminium alloy is most common. European complex hilts are often fabricated from bar and/or sheet (or cast brass). Whatever is used, there's a definite move away from forging compared to historical methods. It's a replacement of skill by technology. Another reason to use brass: fancy Chinese fittings will often be carved. Brass, being softer, is easier to carve. Cheap fancy fittings can be cast and just cleaned up a little (or on cheap and nasty ones, not even cleaned up, just left with flash and all). Fancy zinc-aluminium can be too weak. Fancy is relatively easy with brass.

28th January 2015, 01:53 AM	#6
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	I see I see... too bad there doesn't seem to be as much demand for plain iron disc guards on reproductions, would much rather have that (personally) than a fancy brass one - but I can appreciate the artistry, and I can see why people like them. Typically Chinese dao had tangs running all the way through even through a hole in the pommel and then peened, right? I remember taking apart a modern repro which had a nut screwed on to tighten the handle/tang relationship and then a pommel fitted and glued on. Pommel came off with heavy use. Studying Chinese saberplay, I can see the usefulness in a strong disc guard, though techniques don't involve much emphasis on the bind or catching of weapons. I must get myself a good antique dao to study one of these days.