How to determine if blade has bloodstains??

philkid · 4th September 2005, 09:32 AM

Hi guys, I just wanna know how do you determine if a blade has blood stains? Can you know just by looking at it? Thanks.

Battara · 4th September 2005, 10:45 AM

Well (being a deep subject and all

) one sign of blood stains for me is when the area in question is pitted and blackened. Human blood is quite acidic and especially reacts with anything with iron in it (like steel). When blood is on a piece of steel for a while, it will not only etch but eat into the metal, oxidizing it black after a while. What may also help is if the area in question looks to have droplets forming a direction or spray. Since blood smears upon contact with a smooth surface, it will do so on a blade surface until it sits there and digs into the metal. I have a kampilan that has the blood spray in a direction where it cut. I have etched the piece to bring out the lamination and still cannot erase the blood stains because they have corroded deep into the blade, pitting the blade.

Justin · 4th September 2005, 06:24 PM

This seems to be a topic that comes up from time to time,heres my 2 cents.

Swords were far too valuable to let blood sit on them long enough for there to be a 'stain',furthermore if you etch a blade in ACID you can easily remove the patination with some extra fine steel wool.

I seriously doubt there are many swords out there that have actual blood stains on them,and I also doubt that there is any definate way to prove whether a sword has ever had any blood on it at all.

Collecters get far too caught up in these things,Im content with believeing that most of the older swords/knives/daggers that I own were used in battle,people have never had a problem finding reasons to kill,and it was much easier to get away with prior to modern forensics.

fearn · 4th September 2005, 10:30 PM

Hi Justin,

Given modern molecular technology, it would be possible to find human DNA on a sword with little difficulty--if it's there to be detected (i.e. the blade hasn't been cleaned recently.

That said, in most cases, I would suspect that any human DNA found on a blade would belong to its current owner. Remember, we shed hair and skin flakes fairly constantly, and some of that will get stuck on any sword kept out for display or used (for practice or whatever).

You could also try swabbing the inside of a scabbard, or cutting it apart for samples, if you want to get carried away. You might find traces there.

Given the cost of such tests, I think this is a waste of money and time. But if you're curious enough...

F

Battara · 5th September 2005, 07:18 AM

The thing is if you leave blood on steel for any length of time, it will already react to the metal. Many of the bladed weapons that were used against American troops and thus brought back by American troops had blood on them for quite a while before being picked off the battlefield and lightly wiped off as souvenoirs. What may accelerate the process is the heat and climate of the Philippines.

erlikhan · 5th September 2005, 09:27 AM

Gorgeous,gold-silver decorated,carved blades were not used in battles.They were too expensive for that. Thats why many of them dont have nicks at all.They were just for show. Battle ones were very simple. If those ones are considered, most of them were used and had blood stains once or more in their lifetime for sure and were cleaned as soon as possible. It doesnt has to stain the blade. Once I wounded my hand quite deeply by a sword while cleaning it, and some blood stayed on the blade for almost 24 hours till I had oppurtunity to clean it. Now there is no sign of this battle

on it.

Tim Simmons · 5th September 2005, 07:33 PM

The last time I cut myself, the blood did not smoke or penetrate metal floors

It is not the sort of stuff one leaves lying around. Nice romantic idea though. Traces might be detectable on leather scabbards when you think about it. Tim

RSWORD · 5th September 2005, 09:24 PM

In my opinion, one does find the occasional blade that does show evidence of blood pitting. Blood pitting is typically deep cratery pits that still have a deep blackish coloration deep in those pits because blood is very corrosive. Take a simple fingerprint. If you do a poor job of wiping off a blade but you leave that one fingerprint check it out in a few weeks. It will be rusting. Just from a fingerprint. If someone just lightly wiped off blood and stored away for awhile it will create deep cratery pits. My friend Philip Tom has polished hundreds of blades over the years, several of which have been ones I owned. He once talked with me about an Arabian Saif of mine that had deep cratery pitting near the tip. He was convinced it was pitting that was the result of blood. He also referenced me to an excellent book which discusses different levels and types of patination on metal but it escapes me at the moment. I will have to dig through my notes and see if I can find the book he had referenced.

Robert · 5th September 2005, 10:48 PM

I think that very few if any stains on edged weapons are actually caused by blood. As Justin said "Collecters get far too caught up in these things,Im content with believeing that most of the older swords/knives/daggers that I own were used in battle,people have never had a problem finding reasons to kill,and it was much easier to get away with prior to modern forensics". I totaly agree with Justin on this. But what sounds better and more exciting when showing to or telling someone about one of your favorite weapons, that the stains were caused by it being bloodied in battle or that it was poorly taken care of. Most people I think would like to believe the first.

4th September 2005, 09:32 AM	#1
philkid Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Philippines Posts: 52	How to determine if blade has bloodstains?? Hi guys, I just wanna know how do you determine if a blade has blood stains? Can you know just by looking at it? Thanks.

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4th September 2005, 10:45 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Well (being a deep subject and all ) one sign of blood stains for me is when the area in question is pitted and blackened. Human blood is quite acidic and especially reacts with anything with iron in it (like steel). When blood is on a piece of steel for a while, it will not only etch but eat into the metal, oxidizing it black after a while. What may also help is if the area in question looks to have droplets forming a direction or spray. Since blood smears upon contact with a smooth surface, it will do so on a blade surface until it sits there and digs into the metal. I have a kampilan that has the blood spray in a direction where it cut. I have etched the piece to bring out the lamination and still cannot erase the blood stains because they have corroded deep into the blade, pitting the blade.

4th September 2005, 06:24 PM	#3
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	This seems to be a topic that comes up from time to time,heres my 2 cents. Swords were far too valuable to let blood sit on them long enough for there to be a 'stain',furthermore if you etch a blade in ACID you can easily remove the patination with some extra fine steel wool. I seriously doubt there are many swords out there that have actual blood stains on them,and I also doubt that there is any definate way to prove whether a sword has ever had any blood on it at all. Collecters get far too caught up in these things,Im content with believeing that most of the older swords/knives/daggers that I own were used in battle,people have never had a problem finding reasons to kill,and it was much easier to get away with prior to modern forensics.

4th September 2005, 10:30 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Justin, Given modern molecular technology, it would be possible to find human DNA on a sword with little difficulty--if it's there to be detected (i.e. the blade hasn't been cleaned recently. That said, in most cases, I would suspect that any human DNA found on a blade would belong to its current owner. Remember, we shed hair and skin flakes fairly constantly, and some of that will get stuck on any sword kept out for display or used (for practice or whatever). You could also try swabbing the inside of a scabbard, or cutting it apart for samples, if you want to get carried away. You might find traces there. Given the cost of such tests, I think this is a waste of money and time. But if you're curious enough... F

5th September 2005, 07:18 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	The thing is if you leave blood on steel for any length of time, it will already react to the metal. Many of the bladed weapons that were used against American troops and thus brought back by American troops had blood on them for quite a while before being picked off the battlefield and lightly wiped off as souvenoirs. What may accelerate the process is the heat and climate of the Philippines.

5th September 2005, 09:27 AM	#6
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Gorgeous,gold-silver decorated,carved blades were not used in battles.They were too expensive for that. Thats why many of them dont have nicks at all.They were just for show. Battle ones were very simple. If those ones are considered, most of them were used and had blood stains once or more in their lifetime for sure and were cleaned as soon as possible. It doesnt has to stain the blade. Once I wounded my hand quite deeply by a sword while cleaning it, and some blood stayed on the blade for almost 24 hours till I had oppurtunity to clean it. Now there is no sign of this battle on it.

5th September 2005, 07:33 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	The last time I cut myself, the blood did not smoke or penetrate metal floors It is not the sort of stuff one leaves lying around. Nice romantic idea though. Traces might be detectable on leather scabbards when you think about it. Tim

5th September 2005, 09:24 PM	#8
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	In my opinion, one does find the occasional blade that does show evidence of blood pitting. Blood pitting is typically deep cratery pits that still have a deep blackish coloration deep in those pits because blood is very corrosive. Take a simple fingerprint. If you do a poor job of wiping off a blade but you leave that one fingerprint check it out in a few weeks. It will be rusting. Just from a fingerprint. If someone just lightly wiped off blood and stored away for awhile it will create deep cratery pits. My friend Philip Tom has polished hundreds of blades over the years, several of which have been ones I owned. He once talked with me about an Arabian Saif of mine that had deep cratery pitting near the tip. He was convinced it was pitting that was the result of blood. He also referenced me to an excellent book which discusses different levels and types of patination on metal but it escapes me at the moment. I will have to dig through my notes and see if I can find the book he had referenced.

5th September 2005, 10:48 PM	#9
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	I think that very few if any stains on edged weapons are actually caused by blood. As Justin said "Collecters get far too caught up in these things,Im content with believeing that most of the older swords/knives/daggers that I own were used in battle,people have never had a problem finding reasons to kill,and it was much easier to get away with prior to modern forensics". I totaly agree with Justin on this. But what sounds better and more exciting when showing to or telling someone about one of your favorite weapons, that the stains were caused by it being bloodied in battle or that it was poorly taken care of. Most people I think would like to believe the first.