An afghan jezail or north african rifle?

francantolin · 18th January 2025, 05:30 PM

Good day dear members,
here is an Afghan rifle I think.
Maybe just a decoration wallhanger with a lot of mother of pearl and brass decorations but with an heavy octagonal barrel.
The price was reasonable so I let myself be tempted.
I read the problem of our friend with his english riflegun but I still decided to buy it.
Nice baby not long 1 m 05 cm but weight of 3.0 kg
I would like to repair it and clean it a little,
the loading mechanism works but the plate moves ,
There is no punch which is not necessarily a bad thing given the number of false punch on Afghan reproductions ...
it is perhaps an assembly made from old parts as they often did in Afghanistan to make a decorative model barrel and plate seems to match.
could we say 19th century ?

kahnjar1 · 18th January 2025, 08:45 PM

Afghan origin but COULD be assembled from parts. Does the touch hole line up with the BOTTOM of the pan? This is usually a sign that it was assembled from parts. Barrel seems a bit short for a flintlock, but who knows.........Worth keeping IMHO as an example of the type.

francantolin · 19th January 2025, 12:02 PM

Thank's a lot kahnjar1 for your reply !

I read about Sindhi flintlocks with these kind of large octogonal barrels.

Yes it seems a little short...
For the hole line and the pan,
If I have understood 😅
I think it can be +/-ok , in comparison with other flint plates.

What I would like to do is to dismantle the barrel and plate, clean all and reassemble it
I have to remove gently some fixing parts

kahnjar1 · 21st January 2025, 07:20 AM

From the latest pics the barrel looks to be an original one, but the fit is all wrong so could well not be the original one from the stock. The touch hole is too high from the bottom of the pan. Is that French lock you show, the lock which is attached to the Afghan, or another?
Stu

francantolin · 21st January 2025, 07:16 PM

The french model is just to show how high the hole must be
So if I can readjust / wind down the barrel in the wooden gaps it must fit good...

corrado26 · 22nd January 2025, 08:28 AM

I think because of the remarkable style of the butt this gun was made by a handyman of the Sind people in today Pakistan. Guns of this type, with sharply curved flaring butts are typical of Sind, now a province of southern Pakistan.

Jim McDougall · 22nd January 2025, 04:24 PM

This is an Afghan jezail, the fabled long gun of the Khyber. These typically had genuine old East India Co. locks or copied versions. It seems there was some interpolation of components from Sind to the south such as barrels etc. but I am far from an authority on these guns.

The more dramatic styling of the butt seems atypical for Afghan, and it is hard to say what part of NW India this might be from. It is interesting that the mother of pearl applique decoration resembles the Afghan guns, and seems to have been most popular.

The French lock is interesting, not used to seeing French weapons or components in these northern Indian regions, but there were of course French elements in India to the East (Pondicherry) as with the other colonial presence there. As always trade and diffusions of population often carry these things far and wide.

kahnjar1 · 25th January 2025, 03:47 AM

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24394
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24388

Yes very likely of Sindi origin rather than Afghan. Above are links to a couple I once owned.
Stu

francantolin · 30th January 2025, 06:45 PM

Thanks a lot for these interesting links !!! 🙏

I still havent remove the barrel from the wooden parts ( don't want to damage it ) but I persevere 💪

I found this powerful poem from Rudyard Kipling,
I guess many of you already knew it but for me it was the first time.

Kind regards

kahnjar1 · Yesterday, 02:32 AM

Suggest that if you are going to remove the barrel that you FIRST remove the screw which looks to be holding the tang. Then CAREFULLY and GENTLY tap the bands along the barrel towards the muzzle end, using a wedge of wood (rather than metal) so as not to scratch the barrel or dent the bands. Mark the band with something so that when you go to replace it, you put it on the right way round.They are usually slightly tapered to fit tight on the barrel. Barrel should then come off easily.
Stu

Jim McDougall · Yesterday, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francantolin

Thanks a lot for these interesting links !!! 🙏

I still havent remove the barrel from the wooden parts ( don't want to damage it ) but I persevere 💪

I found this powerful poem from Rudyard Kipling,
I guess many of you already knew it but for me it was the first time.

Kind regards

Always fascinated with India, and the Northwest Frontier, and probably watched "Gunga Din" a zillion times

Yup, I know this one by Kipling well!!!
It inspired my silliness in this cartoon with Kipling instructing the Afridi sniper:

francantolin · Yesterday, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Suggest that if you are going to remove the barrel that you FIRST remove the screw which looks to be holding the tang. Then CAREFULLY and GENTLY tap the bands along the barrel towards the muzzle end, using a wedge of wood (rather than metal) so as not to scratch the barrel or dent the bands. Mark the band with something so that when you go to replace it, you put it on the right way round.They are usually slightly tapered to fit tight on the barrel. Barrel should then come off easily.
Stu

THANK YOU !!

francantolin · Yesterday, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Always fascinated with India, and the Northwest Frontier, and probably watched "Gunga Din" a zillion times

Yup, I know this one by Kipling well!!!
It inspired my silliness in this cartoon with Kipling instructing the Afridi sniper:

Really nice and funny, thank you for sharing !🙂

Jim McDougall · Yesterday, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francantolin

Really nice and funny, thank you for sharing !��

You bet! That gun is fantastic! I actually love the deeper curved stock and that it is a shorter barrel, more like a carbine.
The shorter gun is of course more effective for a rider, naturally cavalry used them. In these part (Texas) the saddle ring carbine is the thing, rather like Texas Ranger Joaquin Jackson with his....I guess I see the colorful comparison.

I do recall reading that there was a brisk interchange of guns and parts with Sind regarding jezails (as Stu has well noted),so this one is a nice example.

kahnjar1 · Yesterday, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francantolin

THANK YOU !!

Let me know how you get on

18th January 2025, 05:30 PM	#1
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 901	An afghan jezail or north african rifle? Good day dear members, here is an Afghan rifle I think. Maybe just a decoration wallhanger with a lot of mother of pearl and brass decorations but with an heavy octagonal barrel. The price was reasonable so I let myself be tempted. I read the problem of our friend with his english riflegun but I still decided to buy it. Nice baby not long 1 m 05 cm but weight of 3.0 kg I would like to repair it and clean it a little, the loading mechanism works but the plate moves , There is no punch which is not necessarily a bad thing given the number of false punch on Afghan reproductions ... it is perhaps an assembly made from old parts as they often did in Afghanistan to make a decorative model barrel and plate seems to match. could we say 19th century ? Attached Images

19th January 2025, 12:02 PM	#3
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 901	Thank's a lot kahnjar1 for your reply ! I read about Sindhi flintlocks with these kind of large octogonal barrels. Yes it seems a little short... For the hole line and the pan, If I have understood 😅 I think it can be +/-ok , in comparison with other flint plates. What I would like to do is to dismantle the barrel and plate, clean all and reassemble it I have to remove gently some fixing parts Attached Images

22nd January 2025, 08:28 AM	#6
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,210	I think because of the remarkable style of the butt this gun was made by a handyman of the Sind people in today Pakistan. Guns of this type, with sharply curved flaring butts are typical of Sind, now a province of southern Pakistan. Attached Images Last edited by corrado26; 22nd January 2025 at 07:18 PM.

22nd January 2025, 04:24 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,016	This is an Afghan jezail, the fabled long gun of the Khyber. These typically had genuine old East India Co. locks or copied versions. It seems there was some interpolation of components from Sind to the south such as barrels etc. but I am far from an authority on these guns. The more dramatic styling of the butt seems atypical for Afghan, and it is hard to say what part of NW India this might be from. It is interesting that the mother of pearl applique decoration resembles the Afghan guns, and seems to have been most popular. The French lock is interesting, not used to seeing French weapons or components in these northern Indian regions, but there were of course French elements in India to the East (Pondicherry) as with the other colonial presence there. As always trade and diffusions of population often carry these things far and wide. Attached Images

30th January 2025, 06:45 PM	#9
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 901	Thanks a lot for these interesting links !!! 🙏 I still havent remove the barrel from the wooden parts ( don't want to damage it ) but I persevere 💪 I found this powerful poem from Rudyard Kipling, I guess many of you already knew it but for me it was the first time. Kind regards Attached Images

18th January 2025, 08:45 PM	#2
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,751	Afghan origin but COULD be assembled from parts. Does the touch hole line up with the BOTTOM of the pan? This is usually a sign that it was assembled from parts. Barrel seems a bit short for a flintlock, but who knows.........Worth keeping IMHO as an example of the type.

21st January 2025, 07:20 AM	#4
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,751	From the latest pics the barrel looks to be an original one, but the fit is all wrong so could well not be the original one from the stock. The touch hole is too high from the bottom of the pan. Is that French lock you show, the lock which is attached to the Afghan, or another? Stu

21st January 2025, 07:16 PM	#5
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 901	The french model is just to show how high the hole must be So if I can readjust / wind down the barrel in the wooden gaps it must fit good...

25th January 2025, 03:47 AM	#8
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,751	http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24394 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24388 Yes very likely of Sindi origin rather than Afghan. Above are links to a couple I once owned. Stu

Yesterday, 02:32 AM	#10
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,751	Suggest that if you are going to remove the barrel that you FIRST remove the screw which looks to be holding the tang. Then CAREFULLY and GENTLY tap the bands along the barrel towards the muzzle end, using a wedge of wood (rather than metal) so as not to scratch the barrel or dent the bands. Mark the band with something so that when you go to replace it, you put it on the right way round.They are usually slightly tapered to fit tight on the barrel. Barrel should then come off easily. Stu