A Pair of Mexican Naval Swords

drac2k · 29th October 2024, 08:17 PM

I recently purchased a pair of swords that were attributed to the Mexican Navy.
The longer sword with the folding guard and the Eagle Head Pommel didn't look like the typical Mexican Eagle and I was unable to find a similar example until I stumbled on an example that was in the Texas Star of the Republic Museum, allegedly owned by Santa Anna's Naval Aid and Secretary, Ramon Martinez Caro.
The second sword was supposedly a naval cutlass and while it is a good length and shape to be such, I can not find a comparable example. It certainly is Mexican, it looks like it is a composite sword, made a long time ago, put together for whatever past need.

Jim McDougall · 30th October 2024, 04:13 AM

These are both fantastic swords!!!! and as you know I have an affinity for Spanish and Mexican swords we've been talking about for 10 years +

The first one is of course naval due to fouled anchor and the eagle and snake emblem of Republic of Mexico from post 1825. The similar sword (hilt) resembling this one and attributed to Ramon Martinez Caro must be from his career well past his attachment to Santa Anna during the Texas campaigns of `1836.
This type hilt is interesting as it incorporates the American eagle head pommel with the British 'gothic' style hilt of mid 19th c. and if not mistaken these were produced in Germany for Mexico and Latin American countries later in 19thc.
It seems that also in this time Ames (1850s+) was producing eagle head swords for Mexican army.

The second sword has the typical 'phrygian hat' type pommel of French M1822 cavalry sabers (later copied by US as the M1840). While these were known in late 1820s most are associated with later periods, especially with the RM mark and liberty hat with feather surround.....also the A.C. was a supplier in Mexico, A. Columbuzier, later in 19th c. and I think Mexico City.

Not sure why it would be deemed a cutlass though with regular cavalry blade.Attached example of my 'cutlass' c. 1870s + with same markings.

Also shown an Ames Mexican army hilt probably 1860s-70s and Mexican cavalry saber late 1820s -30s with Spanish motto blade.

drac2k · 30th October 2024, 04:35 AM

Thanks, Jim, as always your vast expertise is always appreciated!
I think that they may have called the shorter sword a cutlass because of the blade length which is only 23" long; also mine has more of a local flavor as the handle is horn.

Jim McDougall · 30th October 2024, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drac2k

Thanks, Jim, as always your vast expertise is always appreciated!
I think that they may have called the shorter sword a cutlass because of the blade length which is only 23" long; also mine has more of a local flavor as the handle is horn.

Thanks David.....with the incredible scope of variation in these Spanish colonial and Mexican weapons its an endless learning process, which is why these are so fascinating.
I agree, the term cutlass has ever been tossed around pretty loosely, and even espada anchas are often termed cutlasses in descriptions, as noted in my paper of last year published in Sweden (but in English). Basically I guess, any shorter blade would qualify as a cutlass? but that becomes confusing due to the naval connotation

Whatever the case, there is a certain rustic charm with these Mexican swords that have been reworked, and that canted horn grip profoundly adds to it!

Hotspur · 6th November 2024, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

These are both fantastic swords!!!! and as you know I have an affinity for Spanish and Mexican swords we've been talking about for 10 years +

The first one is of course naval due to fouled anchor and the eagle and snake emblem of Republic of Mexico from post 1825. The similar sword (hilt) resembling this one and attributed to Ramon Martinez Caro must be from his career well past his attachment to Santa Anna during the Texas campaigns of `1836.
This type hilt is interesting as it incorporates the American eagle head pommel with the British 'gothic' style hilt of mid 19th c. and if not mistaken these were produced in Germany for Mexico and Latin American countries later in 19thc.
It seems that also in this time Ames (1850s+) was producing eagle head swords for Mexican army.

The second sword has the typical 'phrygian hat' type pommel of French M1822 cavalry sabers (later copied by US as the M1840). While these were known in late 1820s most are associated with later periods, especially with the RM mark and liberty hat with feather surround.....also the A.C. was a supplier in Mexico, A. Columbuzier, later in 19th c. and I think Mexico City.

Not sure why it would be deemed a cutlass though with regular cavalry blade.Attached example of my 'cutlass' c. 1870s + with same markings.

Also shown an Ames Mexican army hilt probably 1860s-70s and Mexican cavalry saber late 1820s -30s with Spanish motto blade.

The Ames eagle pommel and probably grip were of one, the blade another and the hilt a French Cutler, you can just make out the French cartouche. I see something new very time I revisit those files from Dave Parks site.

The naval officer sword has an almost enlarged Widmann type VI profile but I'm sure it was just influence

Cheers
GC

Legendary_Jarl · Today, 03:19 AM

It's unfortunate that the Mexican military has been so cryptic with information regarding the army. If there were ever formal patterns of swords issued to officers at all that information is not readily available. Unfortunately as well, it has been prohibited since the 1917 constitution for civilians to own weapons exclusive to the army including lances, bayonets and swords like these. The interpretation has been recently changed to mean of any military. Needless to say I am so glad I left Mexico and I can now legally and freely collect whatever tf I want.

I think the top sword could have been made in Britain. Looks similar to 'Gothic hilted' British swords. I'd be curious to see if there was a significant trade of arms between Mexico and Britain in the early XIX century. When I went to Texas I was fortunate to be able to visit the site of the Battle of San Jacinto. There is a museum there that has many artifacts including a sword that they claim belonged to Santa Anna. Why would Santa Anna have a plain 1796 pattern British heavy cavalry sword? Doesn't make sense. They also had a bunch of items that had descriptions such as "This was cast from Silver taken from Santa Anna". And I'm like: "...suuure". By the way, I took a picture of a sword that has a similar hilt to yours but without the eagle. I don't remember if it was Mexican or American though.

29th October 2024, 08:17 PM	#1
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	A Pair of Mexican Naval Swords I recently purchased a pair of swords that were attributed to the Mexican Navy. The longer sword with the folding guard and the Eagle Head Pommel didn't look like the typical Mexican Eagle and I was unable to find a similar example until I stumbled on an example that was in the Texas Star of the Republic Museum, allegedly owned by Santa Anna's Naval Aid and Secretary, Ramon Martinez Caro. The second sword was supposedly a naval cutlass and while it is a good length and shape to be such, I can not find a comparable example. It certainly is Mexican, it looks like it is a composite sword, made a long time ago, put together for whatever past need. Attached Images

30th October 2024, 04:13 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,952	These are both fantastic swords!!!! and as you know I have an affinity for Spanish and Mexican swords we've been talking about for 10 years + The first one is of course naval due to fouled anchor and the eagle and snake emblem of Republic of Mexico from post 1825. The similar sword (hilt) resembling this one and attributed to Ramon Martinez Caro must be from his career well past his attachment to Santa Anna during the Texas campaigns of `1836. This type hilt is interesting as it incorporates the American eagle head pommel with the British 'gothic' style hilt of mid 19th c. and if not mistaken these were produced in Germany for Mexico and Latin American countries later in 19thc. It seems that also in this time Ames (1850s+) was producing eagle head swords for Mexican army. The second sword has the typical 'phrygian hat' type pommel of French M1822 cavalry sabers (later copied by US as the M1840). While these were known in late 1820s most are associated with later periods, especially with the RM mark and liberty hat with feather surround.....also the A.C. was a supplier in Mexico, A. Columbuzier, later in 19th c. and I think Mexico City. Not sure why it would be deemed a cutlass though with regular cavalry blade.Attached example of my 'cutlass' c. 1870s + with same markings. Also shown an Ames Mexican army hilt probably 1860s-70s and Mexican cavalry saber late 1820s -30s with Spanish motto blade. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 30th October 2024 at 04:34 AM.

Today, 03:19 AM	#6
Legendary_Jarl Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 11	It's unfortunate that the Mexican military has been so cryptic with information regarding the army. If there were ever formal patterns of swords issued to officers at all that information is not readily available. Unfortunately as well, it has been prohibited since the 1917 constitution for civilians to own weapons exclusive to the army including lances, bayonets and swords like these. The interpretation has been recently changed to mean of any military. Needless to say I am so glad I left Mexico and I can now legally and freely collect whatever tf I want. I think the top sword could have been made in Britain. Looks similar to 'Gothic hilted' British swords. I'd be curious to see if there was a significant trade of arms between Mexico and Britain in the early XIX century. When I went to Texas I was fortunate to be able to visit the site of the Battle of San Jacinto. There is a museum there that has many artifacts including a sword that they claim belonged to Santa Anna. Why would Santa Anna have a plain 1796 pattern British heavy cavalry sword? Doesn't make sense. They also had a bunch of items that had descriptions such as "This was cast from Silver taken from Santa Anna". And I'm like: "...suuure". By the way, I took a picture of a sword that has a similar hilt to yours but without the eagle. I don't remember if it was Mexican or American though. Attached Images

30th October 2024, 04:35 AM	#3
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	Thanks, Jim, as always your vast expertise is always appreciated! I think that they may have called the shorter sword a cutlass because of the blade length which is only 23" long; also mine has more of a local flavor as the handle is horn.