WWI US Naval Chief's Knives

[Ian]

I'm not sure whether this topic is better placed here or in the Miscellaneous Forum. Since it is WWI era, and that is usually the cut off for items here, I've put it here.

This lot finished today. Here is the auctioneer's description: "Lot of 2 WW I American US Navy Battleship Chief's Long & Short Knives. Knife 1 Total length: 32 1/2", Blade length: 27 3/4", Knife 2 Total length: 14", Blade length: 9 1/2"." I was not the successful bidder, but thought they looked odd and worth a small bid.

These both look like something made in a large ship's machine shop. I'm wondering if anyone has seen similar items attributed to a Naval Chief. I assume "Chief" refers to Chief Petty Officer. Thoughts about what these may have been used for are very welcome.
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[CutlassCollector]

Hard to imagine what these would be used for and they look more like tools rather than weapons.
A large warship even in WW1 would have been equipped with its own cutlasses, and other small arms including rifles and bayonets.

Large ships with hundreds of crew members would have frozen meat storage facilities so I'm thinking these are butcher's knives for cutting up carcasses and large cuts of meat. Chef not chief perhaps?

[Ian]

Hi CC. The idea of cooking knives occurred to me also. The USN does not have "chefs," but cooks for sure.


The hilts are similar on these two and and a bit unusual.

[Jim McDougall]

These items of weapons curiosa(?) are interesting miscellania of course, and while militaria in classification do bring up warfare perspectives. They obviously exceed the period timelines normally discussed here, which ideally observe a terminus ante quem of c. 1900. However with actual weapons as far as patterns and forms these often had working lives extending beyond arbitrary time lines in discussions. Even tools like this might be called into action at any time and likely the same guidelines happened with them, in use over long periods.

While cooks etc. were not part of battle order typically in campaigns (or on ships of course), it was often impossible not to somehow become engaged in many situations.
In one case for example in the Crimean war at Balaklava, a butcher with the regiments, overcome with the excitement, grabbed a huge sword and a horse and rode into action with one of the units. Not sure if he would have done so if only armed with a knife like this, but the point is that even cooks (or butchers) could be combative.

Following the humor of cooks vs. chefs, I think of the movie "Up Periscope" (Kelsey Grammar) and the galley in the vintage submarine, where the cook, aghast, finds canned goods...from the Korean War!!! ... the notion of 'cuisine' uh.........pretty far off.

As far as these knives in the weapon genre, perhaps hunting swords and knives and their companion items are not too far away from these.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...
Following the humor of cooks vs. chefs, I think of the movie "Up Periscope" (Kelsey Grammar) and the galley in the vintage submarine, where the cook, aghast, finds canned goods...from the Korean War!!! ... the notion of 'cuisine' uh.........pretty far off.....

The top knife looks a lot like a whaler's flensing knife, the bottom looks like a hunting dagger : See https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=30291 for similar ones.



Related Anecdote: During my stint in the USCG in the Marine Inspection Office in New Orleans, 1968-72, I Inspected numerous merchant ships, including some old-timers from WW2 or earlier. Part of the inspection was checking the mandatory lifeboat rations, we found many stamped with dates in the early 1940s. These were canned rations of assorted contents and flavours, and water, and biscuits wrapped in waxed paper. as long as the cans were not dented or rusty across the seams, and the biscuits didn't have bugs, they were acceptable. Canned food remains eatable and nutritious for a LONG time (so does dry biscuit/hard tack) - much like a Hostess Twinkly left on a fence post... having tasted some of the dented beef stew cans along with some biscuits, they were still quite tasty.


The USCG DOES sometimes refer to a ship' senior culinary specialist as 'Chef'. here are two culinary specialists presented by a Chief Petty Officer culinary specialist with their knives on promotion and assignment as the senior on board a cutter:



"Standing outside of Coast Guard Station Little Creek, a small group of people watched as Master Chief Petty Officer James Swenson, the rating force master chief for culinary specialists, presented the sisters with his custom knives, which read, “Thank you and YES CHEF!” following Allen’s advancement ceremony." - From the 'USCG news', Sept. 5, 2024.

[Jim McDougall]

Hoped you'd come in on this one ya old salt!

[kronckew]

I suspect those two knives of the OP may well be pre-WW1, may even be late 19c, and hence valid for discussion under the present forum guideline.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... ya old salt!

'Nother anecdote:
Naval/Coast Guard, and even Merchant Marine officers dress hats have most of the hat emblems made of brass, nice and shiny when new. Junior officers have been known to tie their hats on top of bollards and other suitable points, near the bows of the ship, where the salt water spray would more speedily tarnish the brass, making them look less like newbies - salty hat, salty dog.


My not very salty winter dress blues & shiny hat thingies: Note: the shiny gold braid hat bands are NEVER used to hold the hat on your head: