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Old 29th May 2005, 05:38 PM   #11
Jim McDougall
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
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Hi Jens,
Thank you very much for the kind words on what apparantly did evolve into more of an article! As I've always noted, Im hardly known for brevity and actually it did take quite a while to find the data I did find on this fascinating subject. What I like is the learning while Im doing it. I always hope that sharing what I find can be shared by others too, so I write...a lot!!!

Rick,
Thanks for the notes on the Agincourt battle, and in reviewing Professor Keegans account. he does note the rain and plowed fields, however his observations focus on the difficulty and slowness of movement of the forces through this. His descriptions and perspective on battles reflect the kind of study done at British military university at Sandhurst, naturally with attention to tactics, but Keegan has a more subjective and psychological approach which was what drew me to his work in the first place.
The references elsewhere that noted the death of the Duke of York of other than wounds, suggesting heatstroke or heart attack seemed very much applicable here, and I hoped that Keegan might offer more detail. Actually he did, noting the Duke was pulled from beneath a significant number of corpses, and it was noted he died of either 'suffocation or heart attack'.
Keegan is an incredibly detailed narrator had already mentioned the rainy, muddy conditions, yet does not suggest drowning, which is as you have suggested is more than entirely plausible.

I think that the lack of attention that prevails in most military history and similar narratives to this less than valorious subject matter is much as has been noted, when documenting heroic events in the most dramatic and tragic circumstance in humanity..that of war...often is biased in degree. Human nature seeks comfort and hope as well as spirit in knowing that the lost lives of thier loved ones were not spent in vain.
It is well noted that a life of a warrior lost in any conflict is profoundly significant regardless of the cause or means in which it occurred. All warriors are, as Rick has said, heroes unless running away. In all regard, it would seem that even in many of those circumstances, a number may be qualified by the less than attended subject we discuss here. The degrees of heat related and exhaustion problems physiologically related to extreme conditions may distort the judgement or ability of a combatant, and cause actions he would not normally consider.

Mark
Im really glad you came in on this as well as we needed some medical perspective here, and yours in handling situational and traumatic medical events is, uh , just what the doctor ordered!!
Really though, it seems this very prevalent and insidious situation is little discussed, often even in general medical references. It seems that way back in my own ancient history, basic training which was unfortunately in southern Texas during the hot humid summer was extremely threatened with this problem of heatstroke. We were cautioned constantly to 'take our salt tablets' and warned of the consequences. Along the course one could see strategically placed ambulances, and I saw more than several unfortunates rushed away in them, presumably most fallen from the heat. Similarly I can recall standing at attention in direct sun for what seemed eternity...the guy on my right was so paranoid about the rest of us passing out. I suddenly realized an emptiness next to me and he was flat on the ground and completely unconscious. Another insidious element..anxiety.
Im sure you are familiar with vaso-vagal syncope, where anxiety or fear however insidious or subliminal, can cause a persons heartbeat to diminish and often stop, sometimes fatally. Could this be another factor in one being overcome by heat or stress exhaustion?

All best regards,
Jim

Last edited by Jim McDougall; 30th May 2005 at 05:19 PM.
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