[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by ward

I am sorry Norman that my messages seem kurt. I answer a lot of emails and questions a day. I am not trying to be impolite it is just my nature. I would rather see a collector buy simpler honest old pieces than fancy reproduction or tourist pieces. I see no reason to suger coat a response and give false hope to someone. The piece stands on its own or does not.

Thats alright Ward,
When at work I operate with, short clear direct responses without the sit around and have a chat attitude as sometimes seconds are precious and when wasted the day can have a snowball effect. I will touch on the fancier "reproduction and tourist pieces" shortly. False hope, real hope and items standing on their own only do so with consistant facts across the board, I have filed through so many postings here on kindjals and find no consistancy with points of interest raised and the same when taking these notes on board when viewing with great details Kindjals in very reputable dealer's webpages. I will follow this up soon with further postings.

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Norman

Some of our fellow formites are advanced collectors in there respected areas such as in Eastern European,South East Asian,Indo Persian and African weapons so when I post something that I am not sure of I am looking for their honest unbiased opinion. So if I bought something that later turns out to be not what I originally hope for than I take it with a grain of salt and move on. I feel if several individuals with one hundred plus years of combined collecting expertise in a given area tell me something I should listen. Yes I agree sometimes they can be a bit blunt but there is a saying "If it looks like a duck walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it must be a duck". I generally stay away from Chinese and Eastern European items due to the fact that they have become a cottage industry in some the mother countries and the replicas though traditionally made are becoming harder to differentiate from the old ones.

Regards,

Lew

Very good point Lew, the combined experience here is a great sum of knowledge, what I am trying to sift through here(is for the betterment of all to understand these items), is the consistancy of comments made with conviction by different individuals that contradict other individuals here, the relationship of what is said and how it doesn't colate to images offered up. I am not trying to discredit anyone, I am sure there must be very good reason for these differences, it is just not explained clearly if at all.
I just want to see and hear what these reasons for different standards are, not just have it accepted without an explanation.

The ducks quacking and I don't see no emus...

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Teodor,
I am in absolute agreement that the very act of posting an item is to invite constructive criticism and that if you do not want to hear or acknowledge that your item may or may not be what you had hoped then don't post. On the other hand comments and opinions can be proffered with tact and understanding and need not be in any way derisory or demeaning to get over a point.
Regards,
Norman.


Hi Ward,
Having mentioned no names you are obviously aware that your responses are short and to the point, I wouldn't say curt. First may I say that I am grateful that you have taken the time and effort to respond and give your opinion on some of my pieces, you are obviously knowledgeable and I do appreciate the imparting of said knowledge. I wouldn't expect you to give false hope and to be fair I never suggested anywhere that you or anyone else should tell anybody anything other than your honest opinion. I am probably behind the times with regard to the beginning and ending of replies, my daughter tells me I'm a dinosaur and that this is for letter writing and not the net, I am retired and have time for the niceties and so will stick with them. The most important thing is the common interest we all share the posters and repliers for without them there would be no Forum.
Regards,
Norman.

Nicely said Norman, are you sure you haven't spent time in the diplomatic corp? I too agree there are some very knowledgeable people here and I too wish to hear all that is said good or bad about anything posted, though delivery of anything is always important.

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

To fight your corner here, you really have to be sure or know your interest, and do the research. The mysterious "rightness" in one item is completely different in another. All collectors have struggled with this sort of work at one time or another.
The items in question are indeed better than many "right" stuff I have seen that I am sure are not apprentice work due to location and time frame. All adding to the difficulties, just that these do not appear to be truly old.
Auction houses some better than others, are only expert in selling!!!!!!!!! Most often thier knowledge is only based on the price an object made at the last same category of sales whether they knew anything about it or not. They are salespeople only, lets drink there mini bar .

Hi Tim, that sounds like me struggling to get a hold of the elusive standard for sure....I think I need a double of what ever you are pouring....make that a tripple on the rocks...

Originally Posted by David

Norman, i certainly agree that it is important that we all respond to one another in a civil and understanding manner. That said, having followed these 2 kindjal threads, i do not see anywhere that any member was uncivil with Gavin.
As for remarks made about the skill level of the creator of any piece, unless i made it myself, or my father, uncle or grandfather was the craftsman, i see no reason whatsoever to take offense. We should be able to separate ourselves from the things we collect and i should hope that criticism of my knife is not criticism of me.

You are quite right David, there has been no personal attack on me, only on what can be seen in the images, I take no offense persay, I am disappointed as expressed clearly in past posting of the lack of whys and wherefores, that is very disappointing coming from who people here consider experts and the jumping on the band wagon by others with the same experinece again with out so much as a small consistant comparison, I have read many of the Keris forum postings, mostly things are put into perspective clearly and concisely with good factual backup....I still have many question unanswered and will sum them all up shortly in an other reply.

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Lew,
Agreed, there is a vast resource of knowledge here and it is a pleasure and a privilege to be able to tap that resource at will. As to experts, along with their expertise comes a certain blase approach to lesser specimens of the genre, weapons I mean not people, this is to be understood, I am an an expert of sorts, a professional photographer for forty years, anything less than 5x4 is a miniature format camera to me. Usually when someone finds out my ex profession out come the holiday photographs or the tired old S.L.R. from the cupboard but I have to say I have never been unnecessarily blunt or short but neither have I given them false hope that "Yes you could be the next, insert name of famous photographer of your choice, honest you really could!" Everyone of you are correct in that honesty and candour should never be sacrificed but neither should sensitivity and understanding.
Regards,
Norman.
P.S. Yes, I think you have to be particularly sharp, pardon the pun, to enter the Chinese antique market.

Originally Posted by David

That's funny Norm, i've been a pro shooter for more than 30 years now and have always considered anything larger than 2 1/4 as those unnecessarily large format cameras.

You guys will have plenty to talk about when that minibar is opened, maybe you can click of a few too for the forum gathering postings.....

Originally Posted by ward

getting back to the original post. Either you see the differece between this piece in workmanship style and form and a 19th century piece or you do not. If you are happy with the piece fine otherwise move on. I personally feel the piece was made somewhere between 1950-1990.

Hi Ward, please come in and share with me your reasons why, the only to learn for myself and others. Thanks in advance.

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Tim,
I have seen many things described incorrectly at auction houses and agreed just because they say it is so does not make it necessarily so, see the disclaimer. As to the "rightness" factor I believe this can only be determined absolutely, if there is any doubt, by handling the object in question indeed the only times I have bought a pup, several in fact, was over the net with only photographs to guide me. Kindjals are not my area of interest or knowledge, although I would not pass up the opportunity to acquire a nice one given the chance, therefore I am not defending Gav's notions of the "rightness" of his acquisitions I was only concerned that some responses were a bit insensitive.
We are all different and perhaps what one person finds insensitive others do not, each to their own I guess is the only answer.
Regards,
Norman.

I too have, any many here have found these misrepresented items, sometimes refered to as sleepers. Handling an object along with knowledge is paramount I feel also Norman, as Scratch here has said about many things in my collection both weapons and non weapons, the images provided do not do them justice...mybe a few photgraphy tips can bring the real essence of this piece to light?

Originally Posted by ALEX

I also feel the Forum had been swayed to the direction of mixing personal feelings, guesses and comments from others with unsufficient experience in a particular field. Everyone had been professional and courteous, but I believe it'd be better to stick with the basics, i.e. sharing opinions based solely on specific experience and knowledge! At this point many experienced members voiced their solid opinions and reasoning behind them. The best advice was to handle as many pieces as possible, which is the only way to tell the difference. There is no science behind telling an authentic antique kindjal (or painting, sculpture or anything else) from repro. Experience is what counts. Congratulations to those who were able to learn.
It's time to move on.
OUT

A shame you are opting out of this Alex, you have provided the most substantiated comments in my eyes and good points of reference to follow up on. I will be offering up more questions(and further images of this and others) that have arisen from these specific and knowlegdable comments for further discussion shortly.

Thank you everyone who has taken an interest thus far and thank you for all comments good or bad, it is the only way forward.

regards

Gav