Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

A. G. Maisey · 30th May 2007, 03:32 PM

David, I was just about finished, but after reading Ganja's latest post I felt I needed to comment on a couple things that he wrote, however, this is the last one---I swear it!

Hear that Ganja?

The floor is yours. You can have the last word. Whatever you care to say about buntels and mayits and mayats I will not reply to.

As for the tomatoes David, I fear you have missed the deep philosophical intent of this seemingly simple little ditty. What it is really saying is that we are all unique and that there is no one way nor one answer to anything. This being so there can be no right and no wrong order for the words to the song.Back to front? Front to back? Meaningless, as all things are one and one is everything---split a piece of wood------, lift a stone-----.(Gospel of Thomas)

The true meaning of all those tomatoes and potatoes and oysters and bananas is that there are many roads to God, but only one God. God gives us the tomatoes and so on, but it is our free choice to determine what we do with the tomatoes.Do we eat them all at once---or do we make them last? Savour them separately?Or do we use them to make a curry? Big decision, but one that we are free to make, and no matter if we make a curry, or sample the gifts of God separately, they still sustain life. You see? More than one answer to any question.

And do not forget the pyjamas, brother David. God invented pyjamas so we would not be led into temptation. Ever seen a woman in pyjamas around about bedtime? Try it some time. Instant birth control. As for wearing them yourself---well, its easier just to roll over and go to sleep.But God in his wisdom also gave us a remedy for those pestilential pyjamas. Yes brother David, he gave us laughter---however you wish to pronounce it. Which is something you really need sometimes, because if you couldn't laugh at things, you'd cry in frustration.

Dear Ganja,

I accept that you may not have heard the term "buntel mayat", but Empu Suparman Supawijaya had heard it, and he claimed that this was the correct name for the pamor motif that is now known as "buntel mayit".

Put as simply as I can :- Pak Parman said that the pamor name "buntel mayit" was incorrect, and that it was really "buntel mayat".

As for how this may sound to your ears, I understand fully your distaste, whether you hear "buntel mayat", or "buntel mayit".

In linguistics, the recognised prime reference on the Old Javanese language is the Old Javanese -English (also Old Javanese-Indonesian) dictionary produced by P.J. Zoetmulder and S.O. Robson. The word "mayit" does not appear in this dictionary.

To establish when the name "Setra Ganda Mayit" was first used, one would need to research the history of the wayang to identify the literary source where this name first appeared.
Regretably, we cannot take something as we see it today, and assume that it was the same yesterday, or 500 years ago.

The transition from "mayat" to "mayit" in respect of the pamor motif may be understood by the association of ideas and the Javanese propensity for playing with words. The same, or even a similar association of ideas does not exist with dhapur.

There is no "buntel" in Old Javanese, no "bungkus", no "mayit", and no "mayat" ( in a sense able to be linked to Modern Javanese).
Clearly the pamor has been given its present name, be that buntel mayat, or buntel mayit, since the 17th century. If it existed prior to the 17th century it had a different name.
But perhaps it did not exist prior to the 17th century, in which case it may be regarded as a new pamor (after 1650).If it is indeed a new pamor, then this opens a whole new line of discussion---but I'm not going to go there.

As to why this pamor name uses "buntel", rather than "bungkus", I have no idea, however, I would make the point that there is a shade of difference in the meanings of these two words.

But be that as it may, the matter that has been under discussion has not been why certain things did not happen, nor why certain things did happen.

The matter under discussion has been firstly the meaning of the word "mayat", and secondly the correct name for a particular pamor.

My initial post was generated by some private correspondence which I recieved requesting clarification on the correct name of the pamor. This correspondence was in turn generated by a discussion in another thread which apparently caused a good deal of confusion amongst people who do not understand either Indonesian or Javanese.

I believe I have achieved my objective of clarification for those people who approached me privately.

I now have no further interest in this discussion. I do not regard this discussion as a contest, nor a point scoring competition, I really do not care what anybody may call this particular pamor. I am merely sharing knowledge that is in my possession. Accept it, or reject it, either way it makes no difference to me.

Those who wish to believe that the correct name of the pamor motif we have been discussing is "buntel mayit" are perfectly at liberty to so believe.

Those who wish to believe that the correct name of this pamor motif is "buntel mayat", are equally at liberty to so believe.

And those who were confused as to how the word "mayat" is to be understood should no longer be confused.

30th May 2007, 03:32 PM	#25
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,984	David, I was just about finished, but after reading Ganja's latest post I felt I needed to comment on a couple things that he wrote, however, this is the last one---I swear it! Hear that Ganja? The floor is yours. You can have the last word. Whatever you care to say about buntels and mayits and mayats I will not reply to. As for the tomatoes David, I fear you have missed the deep philosophical intent of this seemingly simple little ditty. What it is really saying is that we are all unique and that there is no one way nor one answer to anything. This being so there can be no right and no wrong order for the words to the song.Back to front? Front to back? Meaningless, as all things are one and one is everything---split a piece of wood------, lift a stone-----.(Gospel of Thomas) The true meaning of all those tomatoes and potatoes and oysters and bananas is that there are many roads to God, but only one God. God gives us the tomatoes and so on, but it is our free choice to determine what we do with the tomatoes.Do we eat them all at once---or do we make them last? Savour them separately?Or do we use them to make a curry? Big decision, but one that we are free to make, and no matter if we make a curry, or sample the gifts of God separately, they still sustain life. You see? More than one answer to any question. And do not forget the pyjamas, brother David. God invented pyjamas so we would not be led into temptation. Ever seen a woman in pyjamas around about bedtime? Try it some time. Instant birth control. As for wearing them yourself---well, its easier just to roll over and go to sleep.But God in his wisdom also gave us a remedy for those pestilential pyjamas. Yes brother David, he gave us laughter---however you wish to pronounce it. Which is something you really need sometimes, because if you couldn't laugh at things, you'd cry in frustration. Dear Ganja, I accept that you may not have heard the term "buntel mayat", but Empu Suparman Supawijaya had heard it, and he claimed that this was the correct name for the pamor motif that is now known as "buntel mayit". Put as simply as I can :- Pak Parman said that the pamor name "buntel mayit" was incorrect, and that it was really "buntel mayat". As for how this may sound to your ears, I understand fully your distaste, whether you hear "buntel mayat", or "buntel mayit". In linguistics, the recognised prime reference on the Old Javanese language is the Old Javanese -English (also Old Javanese-Indonesian) dictionary produced by P.J. Zoetmulder and S.O. Robson. The word "mayit" does not appear in this dictionary. To establish when the name "Setra Ganda Mayit" was first used, one would need to research the history of the wayang to identify the literary source where this name first appeared. Regretably, we cannot take something as we see it today, and assume that it was the same yesterday, or 500 years ago. The transition from "mayat" to "mayit" in respect of the pamor motif may be understood by the association of ideas and the Javanese propensity for playing with words. The same, or even a similar association of ideas does not exist with dhapur. There is no "buntel" in Old Javanese, no "bungkus", no "mayit", and no "mayat" ( in a sense able to be linked to Modern Javanese). Clearly the pamor has been given its present name, be that buntel mayat, or buntel mayit, since the 17th century. If it existed prior to the 17th century it had a different name. But perhaps it did not exist prior to the 17th century, in which case it may be regarded as a new pamor (after 1650).If it is indeed a new pamor, then this opens a whole new line of discussion---but I'm not going to go there. As to why this pamor name uses "buntel", rather than "bungkus", I have no idea, however, I would make the point that there is a shade of difference in the meanings of these two words. But be that as it may, the matter that has been under discussion has not been why certain things did not happen, nor why certain things did happen. The matter under discussion has been firstly the meaning of the word "mayat", and secondly the correct name for a particular pamor. My initial post was generated by some private correspondence which I recieved requesting clarification on the correct name of the pamor. This correspondence was in turn generated by a discussion in another thread which apparently caused a good deal of confusion amongst people who do not understand either Indonesian or Javanese. I believe I have achieved my objective of clarification for those people who approached me privately. I now have no further interest in this discussion. I do not regard this discussion as a contest, nor a point scoring competition, I really do not care what anybody may call this particular pamor. I am merely sharing knowledge that is in my possession. Accept it, or reject it, either way it makes no difference to me. Those who wish to believe that the correct name of the pamor motif we have been discussing is "buntel mayit" are perfectly at liberty to so believe. Those who wish to believe that the correct name of this pamor motif is "buntel mayat", are equally at liberty to so believe. And those who were confused as to how the word "mayat" is to be understood should no longer be confused.