Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

Jim McDougall · 5th January 2023, 01:50 PM

No problem, I could have been more clear in my wording.

Staying with the discussion of tamgas, as you have brought forward, and the Tatars as also the focus in discussion of these, I would add this resource (previously mentioned):
"Bron i Uzbrojenie Tatarow" (Tatar Arms and Armor)
Jacek Gotowski, Warsaw, 1997
Item #76
"...only one example of a blade with Tatar ownership is known, this saber with a Tatar tamga sign impressed in its scabbard, and in the Polish Army Museum".

That quote is interesting with regard to my shashka as it suggests the convention was to place the tamga on the scabbard (chape in my case).
However, in revisiting this thread in its 2005 segment, Rsword shows a Tatar sword with apparently the same tamga described in Gutowski but inlaid in the blade.

According to Kirill Rivkin in the discussion, the tamga forms are well known in Tatar contexts including Circassian, and the ancient traditions of the Scythians and Sarmatians. This of course is generally meant and without specifying use on weapons in particular.

As noted, the tamga used by Ottoman military (regarded as to the St. Irene arsenal) is from the Kayi band of the Oguz tribe, and one of the number of examples. Naturally these would vary as required for distinction to the tribe represented.

In rereading through the 2005 discussion it seems there were Turkish tribes present in North Caucusus, and certainly Tatar presence is suggested as well. It would seem there would be abundant possibility to explain the presence of this tamga on the scabbard of a shashka from Vladikavkaz and Daghestani style, despite the rarity of instances of such application.

I brought forward a plate of tamgas from previous discussion for the benefit of current readers as well as picture of the Tatar sword with tamga on blade as referenced in 2005 (comparable to Gutowski example noted).

5th January 2023, 01:50 PM	#67
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,177	No problem, I could have been more clear in my wording. Staying with the discussion of tamgas, as you have brought forward, and the Tatars as also the focus in discussion of these, I would add this resource (previously mentioned): "Bron i Uzbrojenie Tatarow" (Tatar Arms and Armor) Jacek Gotowski, Warsaw, 1997 Item #76 "...only one example of a blade with Tatar ownership is known, this saber with a Tatar tamga sign impressed in its scabbard, and in the Polish Army Museum". That quote is interesting with regard to my shashka as it suggests the convention was to place the tamga on the scabbard (chape in my case). However, in revisiting this thread in its 2005 segment, Rsword shows a Tatar sword with apparently the same tamga described in Gutowski but inlaid in the blade. According to Kirill Rivkin in the discussion, the tamga forms are well known in Tatar contexts including Circassian, and the ancient traditions of the Scythians and Sarmatians. This of course is generally meant and without specifying use on weapons in particular. As noted, the tamga used by Ottoman military (regarded as to the St. Irene arsenal) is from the Kayi band of the Oguz tribe, and one of the number of examples. Naturally these would vary as required for distinction to the tribe represented. In rereading through the 2005 discussion it seems there were Turkish tribes present in North Caucusus, and certainly Tatar presence is suggested as well. It would seem there would be abundant possibility to explain the presence of this tamga on the scabbard of a shashka from Vladikavkaz and Daghestani style, despite the rarity of instances of such application. I brought forward a plate of tamgas from previous discussion for the benefit of current readers as well as picture of the Tatar sword with tamga on blade as referenced in 2005 (comparable to Gutowski example noted). Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 5th January 2023 at 08:54 PM.