Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

BluErf · 5th January 2006, 01:55 PM

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Rick Wrote:

Have all involved in this discussion read these articles ?

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/KERISANDNAGA.html

http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/origin.html

IMO they're very important to read and digest whether you agree with the conclusions or not .

I personally come to the conclusion however disappointing it may be that the keris and its true history are lost to time and that discussing and interpreting the meanings are like trying to hold an egg with no shell .

There is no B&W answer , only opinions and interpretations and these vary from each societal period that the keris has existed through right up to the present .
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Just quoting Rick's post for the URLs.

Hey Pusaka, can't remember if I've welcomed you to the forum before, but just in case I haven't, welcome!

You have now experienced first-hand how controversial and emotionally-charged the keris discussions can get in this forum. Actually, I'd hazard that it's the same everywhere. Its the 'power' of keris, I guess.

You have many interesting ideas about the keris and you have a good ability to link images and symbols from different cultural settings, and draw connections between them, but what you are putting forth are hypotheses that have not been put through a rigorous academic/research process to substantiate them. And where it is a hypothesis, it may be good to state so, so that they are not taken as facts, especially by fellow members just starting out on the "Keris journey" (Yes, I liken collecting and studying Keris to an endless journey

).

The study of keris has been plagued by a serious lack of literature and historical records. In fact, many authors of the keris subject rely on 'informants' from this area (my home region - Southeast Asia - the proud home of the Keris and Kris!!

), who themselves learn about kerises from their elders or people around them. There is such a diversity of perceived meanings and names that it is impossible to say who is right or wrong. This phenomenon, like the myriad forms of kerises and krises, are a testament to the incredible diversity of this region. A feature or pamor of a keris can have one name in one village, and a different one in the next. And if you like, you could visit the Minang Kabau people in Central Sumatra. Just the number of keris hilt forms alone will bewilder anyone.

The keris has pre-Islamic origins, however, it is an interesting observation that it is mainly adopted in places where Islam took hold. Of course, we know about Bali and Lombok being Hinduistic and having the keris, but look at everywhere else - Java, Sumatra, Malay Peninsula, southern parts of Kalimantan, southern parts of Sulawesi, Moroland - its really kerises and krises being found in areas where the people are predominantly Muslim. Its not to say that kerises are Islamic in origin, but they are found where the Muslims are. And would a weapon adopted mostly in Muslim areas be called an Islamic weapon? I can't really say. It could be that the spread of the keris is not due to Islam, but because these areas happen to be on the major trade routes where both the keris and Religion could travel and reach. But I must admit this is my hypothesis.

And like what Rick and Vandoo has said -- the keris goes back a long time, and meanings and interpretations get changed, or even lost. One such example is the Jawa Demam hilt. It is representing a sick person, wearing a headdress (a 'tanjak'), squatting down, face lowered, with one arm wrapped around the body, holding a blanket over the other arm. We have seen examples that have carved 'eyes' at the tip of the head where the headdress is. The reason being that the headdress was re-interpreted as the nose, and therefore, the eyes must be beside it. Its just an example of people having lost the original understanding of what things meant.

You may be frustrated by the lack of straight answers, but this is the uncertainty you have to live with and deal with when studying and collecting the keris. Patience is very important. Good luck collecting, and keep learning.

5th January 2006, 01:55 PM	#59
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	************************************************ **** Rick Wrote: Have all involved in this discussion read these articles ? http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/KERISANDNAGA.html http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/origin.html IMO they're very important to read and digest whether you agree with the conclusions or not . I personally come to the conclusion however disappointing it may be that the keris and its true history are lost to time and that discussing and interpreting the meanings are like trying to hold an egg with no shell . There is no B&W answer , only opinions and interpretations and these vary from each societal period that the keris has existed through right up to the present . ********************************************** ****** Just quoting Rick's post for the URLs. Hey Pusaka, can't remember if I've welcomed you to the forum before, but just in case I haven't, welcome! You have now experienced first-hand how controversial and emotionally-charged the keris discussions can get in this forum. Actually, I'd hazard that it's the same everywhere. Its the 'power' of keris, I guess. You have many interesting ideas about the keris and you have a good ability to link images and symbols from different cultural settings, and draw connections between them, but what you are putting forth are hypotheses that have not been put through a rigorous academic/research process to substantiate them. And where it is a hypothesis, it may be good to state so, so that they are not taken as facts, especially by fellow members just starting out on the "Keris journey" (Yes, I liken collecting and studying Keris to an endless journey ). The study of keris has been plagued by a serious lack of literature and historical records. In fact, many authors of the keris subject rely on 'informants' from this area (my home region - Southeast Asia - the proud home of the Keris and Kris!! ), who themselves learn about kerises from their elders or people around them. There is such a diversity of perceived meanings and names that it is impossible to say who is right or wrong. This phenomenon, like the myriad forms of kerises and krises, are a testament to the incredible diversity of this region. A feature or pamor of a keris can have one name in one village, and a different one in the next. And if you like, you could visit the Minang Kabau people in Central Sumatra. Just the number of keris hilt forms alone will bewilder anyone. The keris has pre-Islamic origins, however, it is an interesting observation that it is mainly adopted in places where Islam took hold. Of course, we know about Bali and Lombok being Hinduistic and having the keris, but look at everywhere else - Java, Sumatra, Malay Peninsula, southern parts of Kalimantan, southern parts of Sulawesi, Moroland - its really kerises and krises being found in areas where the people are predominantly Muslim. Its not to say that kerises are Islamic in origin, but they are found where the Muslims are. And would a weapon adopted mostly in Muslim areas be called an Islamic weapon? I can't really say. It could be that the spread of the keris is not due to Islam, but because these areas happen to be on the major trade routes where both the keris and Religion could travel and reach. But I must admit this is my hypothesis. And like what Rick and Vandoo has said -- the keris goes back a long time, and meanings and interpretations get changed, or even lost. One such example is the Jawa Demam hilt. It is representing a sick person, wearing a headdress (a 'tanjak'), squatting down, face lowered, with one arm wrapped around the body, holding a blanket over the other arm. We have seen examples that have carved 'eyes' at the tip of the head where the headdress is. The reason being that the headdress was re-interpreted as the nose, and therefore, the eyes must be beside it. Its just an example of people having lost the original understanding of what things meant. You may be frustrated by the lack of straight answers, but this is the uncertainty you have to live with and deal with when studying and collecting the keris. Patience is very important. Good luck collecting, and keep learning.