Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

rasdan · 25th October 2005, 08:29 AM

Hi Rick and Battarra,

Thank you very much for the advice and offer. I really appreciate it

I thought i'll first try finding an old hilt for this keris. If that did'nt work out, i'll make a new one for it.

Hi Mabagani,

I just received the keris this morning. Its kinda different from the pics. To my relief the crack is not as huge and deep as in the pictures. Phew..

In the pictures it seems that it is made of some sort of "dry" and light metal but actually it is dense and the edges are really sharp (Its kinda heavy for its size too). Anyway, im not sure how to really tell if its hardened or not, but judging from the steel edge color, i think it is.

For the age, well..

i sure think its an old piece, not because it is mine

but because of the condition of the tang. I guess if a person would wanna age a blade they'll age the entire blade and tang (or in some cases, only the blade) but, in this case, the blade is quite well preserved but the tang is really corroded by rust. Of course theres always a possibility of the forger also thinks this way and purposely age the tang, but i think it is not likely in the case due to the uneveness of the corrosion pattern.

Ok, just some thought. I REALLY hope this wont raise any controversy. I come in peace.. and I just would like to disscuss. hehe..

(Unfortunately i did'nt get that Cato's book on eBay recently.. I'm a bit too late) Is it possibble that the keris is introduced by the Bugis to Philiphines? I come across this website sometime ago and noticed that the sword used in the installation ceremony in the Gowa kingdom in South Sulawesi is a Sundang. You can find it in the glossary part in this page:

http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Indonesia/gowa.htm

This makes me think, the bugis priced sundang's quite highly if it is used in the installation ceremony, not just merely a weapon. A weapon appreciated like that most probably originated from their own culture. Perhaps it is the Bugis that introduced the sundang to Philiphines. Like Leaf said, they dispersed throughout the archipelago in late 17th C and surely brought their weapon with them.

Is it possibble that the Moro adopted the bugis sundang as their weapon in the 18thC? Probably this is the reason that we normaly see many of the 18thC and later kerises (The moros used it extensively) and there's almost no older specimen (It is reserved for a higher statused Bugis). It is a difference and cross-over of culters between 2 ethnic groups.

Perhaps this weapon then evolved with newer features (maybe) the baca-baca and even the Bugis loved them and finally adopted the design and again spreading it around the archipelago.

Again, there are very little specimen of the Bugis/Malay sundang in the Malay region of Riau and the Peninsula. This, again, shows that the sundang is reserved for a higher statused individual according to the Bugis early tradition. (My hypothesis only) There are examples of sundangs owned by the sultan of Perak and Terengganu which has a high Moro taste. The pictures are attached below.

BUT, on second thought, if the above is true, we must had seen at least 2-3 specimens of older kerises. But, the oldest sundang, i suppose, is made around second half of 18thC (Is it?). It seems that there is no sign of earlier kerises of this type. Is it because of the bugis themselves adopting the moro design in the later period or is it besause it is actually born in the 18thC?

It is really an interesting topic indeed, but the truth will remain a mystery..

Best regards,
Rasdan

p/s: In the above keris and sundang have the same meaning i.e the moro keris as normally reffered to in this forum. (If we accept them as the same weapon)

25th October 2005, 08:29 AM	#2
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Hi Rick and Battarra, Thank you very much for the advice and offer. I really appreciate it I thought i'll first try finding an old hilt for this keris. If that did'nt work out, i'll make a new one for it. Hi Mabagani, I just received the keris this morning. Its kinda different from the pics. To my relief the crack is not as huge and deep as in the pictures. Phew.. In the pictures it seems that it is made of some sort of "dry" and light metal but actually it is dense and the edges are really sharp (Its kinda heavy for its size too). Anyway, im not sure how to really tell if its hardened or not, but judging from the steel edge color, i think it is. For the age, well.. i sure think its an old piece, not because it is mine but because of the condition of the tang. I guess if a person would wanna age a blade they'll age the entire blade and tang (or in some cases, only the blade) but, in this case, the blade is quite well preserved but the tang is really corroded by rust. Of course theres always a possibility of the forger also thinks this way and purposely age the tang, but i think it is not likely in the case due to the uneveness of the corrosion pattern. Ok, just some thought. I REALLY hope this wont raise any controversy. I come in peace.. and I just would like to disscuss. hehe.. (Unfortunately i did'nt get that Cato's book on eBay recently.. I'm a bit too late) Is it possibble that the keris is introduced by the Bugis to Philiphines? I come across this website sometime ago and noticed that the sword used in the installation ceremony in the Gowa kingdom in South Sulawesi is a Sundang. You can find it in the glossary part in this page: http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Indonesia/gowa.htm This makes me think, the bugis priced sundang's quite highly if it is used in the installation ceremony, not just merely a weapon. A weapon appreciated like that most probably originated from their own culture. Perhaps it is the Bugis that introduced the sundang to Philiphines. Like Leaf said, they dispersed throughout the archipelago in late 17th C and surely brought their weapon with them. Is it possibble that the Moro adopted the bugis sundang as their weapon in the 18thC? Probably this is the reason that we normaly see many of the 18thC and later kerises (The moros used it extensively) and there's almost no older specimen (It is reserved for a higher statused Bugis). It is a difference and cross-over of culters between 2 ethnic groups. Perhaps this weapon then evolved with newer features (maybe) the baca-baca and even the Bugis loved them and finally adopted the design and again spreading it around the archipelago. Again, there are very little specimen of the Bugis/Malay sundang in the Malay region of Riau and the Peninsula. This, again, shows that the sundang is reserved for a higher statused individual according to the Bugis early tradition. (My hypothesis only) There are examples of sundangs owned by the sultan of Perak and Terengganu which has a high Moro taste. The pictures are attached below. BUT, on second thought, if the above is true, we must had seen at least 2-3 specimens of older kerises. But, the oldest sundang, i suppose, is made around second half of 18thC (Is it?). It seems that there is no sign of earlier kerises of this type. Is it because of the bugis themselves adopting the moro design in the later period or is it besause it is actually born in the 18thC? It is really an interesting topic indeed, but the truth will remain a mystery.. Best regards, Rasdan p/s: In the above keris and sundang have the same meaning i.e the moro keris as normally reffered to in this forum. (If we accept them as the same weapon) Attached Images Last edited by rasdan; 25th October 2005 at 09:24 AM.