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Jim McDougall · 24th August 2012, 10:27 PM

WOW! Mark, thats what I call a broadside!!!! and brilliantly written for someone well rested, let alone without sleep for 36 hours!
You have really well stated that we need to openly receive all opinions expressed here, and carefully review all supporting evidence in considering evaluations toward analysis of the weapon in discussion.

Here we have had some great input, including the material you presented from those collections. My inclinations were toward Spanish colonial as well, but were admittedly becoming tenuous as I tried to find explanations for the appearance of the birdhead on this hanger. The 'Arabic' suggestion for this hanger was as far as I can see eliminated at the outset.

The detail in this birdhead is indeed well done, and seems to faithfully represent the species intended, rather than the rather stylized forms often seen on native examples in Africa such as the example Fernando posted. The image of the hornbill against the hilt of this sword was of course resoundingly compelling, and these birds were keenly important in the cultures of West Africa.

As Gene has pointed out, and you have reminded us, these alternating quillons in form as well as finely featured terminals seem far from the brass hilts of those West African regions, as does the scalloped shellguard.
Despite rebuttal toward the notable high relief feathers, they do still seem Spanish colonial. I completely agree with the influence of eagleheads of North America on Spanish colonial arms, but the conundrum of the distinctly un-eagle look of the birdhead on such an extremely well executed hilt remains.

I think another factor which may being this closer together is the prevalent trade routes from Spains colonies in North Africa, which of course actively traded into West Africa. Many of the curious edged weapons we have thought to be North African have ended up being Spanish colonial, such as the 'Berber' sabres and the fingerstalled swords, both turning up identified from Brazil to Cuba. The Spanish Main which prevailed well through the 19th century included these African areas as well as the Spanish colonies in South, Central America and Mexico all the way to the Philippines in the west.
Just as the unique beak and appearance of the toucan might have had an influence on an eaglehead style hilt, so too could the hornbill.

Here I'll batten my hatches too, and hope for responses good or bad

Its all discussion and open thinking so gentlemen...fire at will !!!

24th August 2012, 10:27 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	WOW! Mark, thats what I call a broadside!!!! and brilliantly written for someone well rested, let alone without sleep for 36 hours! You have really well stated that we need to openly receive all opinions expressed here, and carefully review all supporting evidence in considering evaluations toward analysis of the weapon in discussion. Here we have had some great input, including the material you presented from those collections. My inclinations were toward Spanish colonial as well, but were admittedly becoming tenuous as I tried to find explanations for the appearance of the birdhead on this hanger. The 'Arabic' suggestion for this hanger was as far as I can see eliminated at the outset. The detail in this birdhead is indeed well done, and seems to faithfully represent the species intended, rather than the rather stylized forms often seen on native examples in Africa such as the example Fernando posted. The image of the hornbill against the hilt of this sword was of course resoundingly compelling, and these birds were keenly important in the cultures of West Africa. As Gene has pointed out, and you have reminded us, these alternating quillons in form as well as finely featured terminals seem far from the brass hilts of those West African regions, as does the scalloped shellguard. Despite rebuttal toward the notable high relief feathers, they do still seem Spanish colonial. I completely agree with the influence of eagleheads of North America on Spanish colonial arms, but the conundrum of the distinctly un-eagle look of the birdhead on such an extremely well executed hilt remains. I think another factor which may being this closer together is the prevalent trade routes from Spains colonies in North Africa, which of course actively traded into West Africa. Many of the curious edged weapons we have thought to be North African have ended up being Spanish colonial, such as the 'Berber' sabres and the fingerstalled swords, both turning up identified from Brazil to Cuba. The Spanish Main which prevailed well through the 19th century included these African areas as well as the Spanish colonies in South, Central America and Mexico all the way to the Philippines in the west. Just as the unique beak and appearance of the toucan might have had an influence on an eaglehead style hilt, so too could the hornbill. Here I'll batten my hatches too, and hope for responses good or bad Its all discussion and open thinking so gentlemen...fire at will !!!