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Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Actually I think the first impressions with regard to the toucan perspective in trying to approximate what type of bird this might be were simply that, though I was the one who expressed it. I appreciated your comment regarding that.
My suggestion regarding the appearance of the bird as far as what kind of bird it might represent suggested that perhaps the artisan who fashioned the bird might have been 'influenced' artistically by a bird of tropical regions in Mexico such as the toucan. In no way was my suggestion implying that the hilt was a National Audubon Society degree image of the toucan, simply noting the resemblance. This was very much the case with Mark's notes on the American eagle heads, notes for comparison, not exact matches.
There do seem to be notable similarities in the high relief feathers though, and again that feature in the Mexican emblem was presented in the same sense. Thus far it seems that the Americas are the most likely source for this sabre, though I would not discount Middle Eastern possibilities if I could think of any associated examples, and would look forward to seeing anything that would support the notion.
These comparisons are shown to suggest possible influences on a zoomorphic hilt which at this point remains indistinguishable and Fernando's point regarding artistic license is well placed.
It is always good to see constructive discussion in looking into the history of these, particularly when conflicting views are presented with such courtesy, a pleasure indeed. Often misinterpreted perceptions take place, and this is when this becomes most important.
Fernando, looking forward to more on the marks, and hope we might have some ideas come in that these might be linked to.
All the best,
Jim
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Jim
It would be silly of me to repeat myself time and again but I will point out (again) that the Lattimer collection birds range wide with no exacting similarities aside from birds heads with feathers, I will add that the bird pommels are not Amerrican-centric and that the pommels were popular elsewhere (on the other side of the Atlantic). Relating them as American eagles in the Medicus book (which Mark brought up) again means all we are looking at is bird heads with feathers. One could bring Peterson's book out and see the same, or Neumann and see the same. Birds with feathers, yes but not of influences apparent in the sword being discussed and really very much not of the same genre of birds.
If I seem up in arms regarding the books being used as similarities and even said as exacting, I say get a grip. I could surely find similar feathers on Japanese or Chinese art, indeed across the globe. How many ways to depict feathers. I would venture not so many compared to the global use of them in art. Mark listed his exacting beak as found in the Hartzler book. I have posted a scan of that. I said and will continue to say phooey to that. Whatever
None of the plates referenced were of raptors but there are eagles shown there.
Regarding the Mexican national bird and displays of it, also a circular opinion and apparent perception and I leave this with the thought others here may see tings with a better class of prescription pharmacueticals because I just don't see it. It is an eagle succeeding over a live snake. Pure and simple
Here is a crested toucan for you guys and you can tell me if it is American or not and what the origin might have been.
Maybe it is more like Woody Woodpecker than an eagle and that would explain it.
Cheers
GC