Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Five elements in a mendahk, is it magic? (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=30248)

HughChen 26th October 2024 02:12 AM

Five elements in a mendahk, is it magic?
 
3 Attachment(s)
Three of them look like teeth and paper and wood, the other two have't been identified.

David 28th October 2024 05:17 PM

Very interesting. I have never seen that before. I would love to have a better analysis of exactly what has been placed in there, but i am afraid that it would probably not possible to put it all back together again afterwards.

HughChen 29th October 2024 03:22 AM

1 Attachment(s)
the hilt is like a wizard (the third one)

HughChen 29th October 2024 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David (Post 293859)
Very interesting. I have never seen that before. I would love to have a better analysis of exactly what has been placed in there, but i am afraid that it would probably not possible to put it all back together again afterwards.

It's amazing that no one know anything about this or want to say anything about this if one knows in the forum.

Interested Party 29th October 2024 04:47 PM

Hugh good pictures would help. I honestly have no idea who the third hilt is supposed to represent. Off the top of the head, it could be one of the embassies of Islam to Java, a Hindu sage, or simply an ancestor. The third hilt shows a person in profile. the hair is dressed. this usually signals a signifies a character of non-demonic origin. The eye I can see is round. In wayang the eye shape reflects the characters inter spiritual state. The wider and rounder the eye the less spiritually centered the character is. In hilts it seems less of a hard and fast rule as Bayu has round eyes and looks straight ahead and not to down and/or to the side. To my understanding bulging eyes on hilts are usually demonic. Mr. Maisey says the newer the hilt the harder the identification. This hilt has angularly carved lines and little visible wear that I can see. Maybe Jean or Marco will chime in. They both have spent a lot of time researching culturally diverse hilts.

A question to the forum: would I be off base thinking that this hilt has Sumatran influences in the pattering of the vegetative motifs?

To reiterate more pictures of better quality and multiple angles would help garner responses to your questions.

Rick 29th October 2024 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HughChen (Post 293882)
It's amazing that no one know anything about this or want to say anything about this if one knows in the forum.

A Guess.
Hugh, I wonder if it's a Talisman, Azimat, Magic charm or something in that line. :confused:

David 29th October 2024 07:15 PM

It could just be that it is not photographed well enough, but the mendhak shown in the close-up does not look like the same mendhak you show in the photo with the 3 other keris. I probably is, but the one shown in the last photo looks much more crushed and i cannot see the ring with the granular beads around the edge that is closest to the blade.
What Rick has stated is most probably true, that these objects were placed in there for a talismanic purpose. Possibly there is something written on the folded paper. However, even if we knew exactly what each of these items were there is no guarantee that would lead us to a clear conclusion as to the exact purpose of this act. In most cases talismans like this offer a protective agency, but the specifics reasons for this would almost certainly be personal and known only to the original owner of the keris.
As for the hilt, it is not a form i am particularly familiar with, but IP has taken some good guesses. I don't think it is Sumatran though. Possibly East or North Jawa. What little i can see of the blade suggests East Jawa/Madura. I think we can rule out a demon or a god, and for me i don't see a wizard here. The body has been abstracted so it is difficult to know what body position the figure is striking (standing, crouching, etc.).
If you can provide better, more detailed photos of the hilt showing all sides of it then people might be able to make a better assessment.

Interested Party 29th October 2024 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David (Post 293888)
I don't think it is Sumatran though. Possibly East or North Jawa. What little i can see of the blade suggests East Jawa/Madura. I think we can rule out a demon or a god, and for me i don't see a wizard here. The body has been abstracted so it is difficult to know what body position the figure is striking (standing, crouching, etc.).

Thank you David. I am flattered. Especially as I didn't have time to comb through and cite references. East or North Jawa is exactly what I was getting at. If I remember correctly North Jawa and Sumatra influenced each other's hilts and something about the cut of the spirals made me think not Sumatra but Sumatran influence.

A front, back, and other side shot of the hilt would be very useful.

HughChen 30th October 2024 03:09 AM

More. pics
 
6 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party (Post 293884)
Hugh good pictures would help. I honestly have no idea who the third hilt is supposed to represent. Off the top of the head, it could be one of the embassies of Islam to Java, a Hindu sage, or simply an ancestor. The third hilt shows a person in profile. the hair is dressed. this usually signals a signifies a character of non-demonic origin. The eye I can see is round. In wayang the eye shape reflects the characters inter spiritual state. The wider and rounder the eye the less spiritually centered the character is. In hilts it seems less of a hard and fast rule as Bayu has round eyes and looks straight ahead and not to down and/or to the side. To my understanding bulging eyes on hilts are usually demonic. Mr. Maisey says the newer the hilt the harder the identification. This hilt has angularly carved lines and little visible wear that I can see. Maybe Jean or Marco will chime in. They both have spent a lot of time researching culturally diverse hilts.

A question to the forum: would I be off base thinking that this hilt has Sumatran influences in the pattering of the vegetative motifs?

To reiterate more pictures of better quality and multiple angles would help garner responses to your questions.

More pics

HughChen 30th October 2024 03:10 AM

More pics
 
6 Attachment(s)
More pics

HughChen 30th October 2024 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David (Post 293888)
It could just be that it is not photographed well enough, but the mendhak shown in the close-up does not look like the same mendhak you show in the photo with the 3 other keris. I probably is, but the one shown in the last photo looks much more crushed and i cannot see the ring with the granular beads around the edge that is closest to the blade.
What Rick has stated is most probably true, that these objects were placed in there for a talismanic purpose. Possibly there is something written on the folded paper. However, even if we knew exactly what each of these items were there is no guarantee that would lead us to a clear conclusion as to the exact purpose of this act. In most cases talismans like this offer a protective agency, but the specifics reasons for this would almost certainly be personal and known only to the original owner of the keris.
As for the hilt, it is not a form i am particularly familiar with, but IP has taken some good guesses. I don't think it is Sumatran though. Possibly East or North Jawa. What little i can see of the blade suggests East Jawa/Madura. I think we can rule out a demon or a god, and for me i don't see a wizard here. The body has been abstracted so it is difficult to know what body position the figure is striking (standing, crouching, etc.).
If you can provide better, more detailed photos of the hilt showing all sides of it then people might be able to make a better assessment.

Sorry David, the mendahk has been repaired. In the picture with several keris it hadn't been repaired and was squeezed。

HughChen 30th October 2024 03:16 AM

1 Attachment(s)
more pics

A. G. Maisey 30th October 2024 03:45 AM

Perhaps these little bits of material were put in place in order to achieve a neat mating of the mendak to the hilt.


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