Translation help needed: Arabic cartouche
 

Hi Guys,
Think I've picked up a nice piece of associated metalware to help display the collection! :D
Can anyone hlep with a translation of this cartouche?
Regards
Gene
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...a/IM000013.jpg

Am I seeing a 1312 date?

You are :-)

Cheers Ariel
Would you make that 1895 in new money?

absolutely correcte :p

but the translation isn't easy :o
may be concerning a black-smith or blade-smith,
not arab, could be Persian ?

the cartouche mention;
- AMAL ALI ???

translated by
- MADE BY ALI ????

ALI being the favorite name for Chiites, that may give an idea
but echec to translate the other name :shrug:

à +

Dom (from NAS Fallon - Nevada)

Thanks Dom, yes it my well be a Persian piece, sorry :(
My date is right though is it =1895?
LOL, wonder if its the same 'ali' who made my Persian Shamshir :rolleyes:
Any ideas on the rest?

Regards
Gene

Hi Gene
for the date, no doubt = 1895 :D

but to have more ideas with just a pic of very small part (cartouche, no more) of that ??
dagger ?? sword ?? battle axe ??

could be the same than to give an appreciation
about a woman from her hand picture :rolleyes: ;) :p

à +

Dom (from SF CA, trip mainly ended)

Hello Dom,

Thanks for the reply, you want to see the whole 'item'...
LOL, its not so much a sword, or a dagger.... Or an Axe. :(

Its kind of more a tray for me to display some daggers on.
:o

I really like bronze and brass, this is a bronze tray, 53cm/37.5cm, absolutely covered in beautiful carved designs. One of the best I've seen.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...IM000068-1.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...IM000070-2.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...IM000073-4.jpg

Gene, if you'd not mention 'bronze', I'd be almost certain it is silver. It's unbelievable to see this kind of quality and detail on bronze. This is one of the best I've seen as well. I also like bronze and brass, and especially damascened: 3-metal "Mamluk Revival" types. I realize it's off the scope of this forum (so I'll PM you personally), but I'd like to thank you for posting the great closeups of such a rare and truly beautiful item.

Alex, wow thanks mate!
Its really nice of you to say so.
I know I do very occasionally stray from the arms & armour field ;) and I do appreciate everyones 'patience' when I start threads about the occasional bowl or um... tray.

But I must admit that I secretly hope that my fellow forumites share my love of this sort of thing!
Problem is its just such a huge area! I've got beautiful metalwork from right across asia (although I try to concentrate on India it never seems to go that way), and can never seem to find somewhere to really 'chat' about it and swap knowledge with other collectors.

The tray in question has been a source of mixed emotions for me really! I kind of assumed from the sheer quality and complexity of the chiseled designs that it was rather older than it is.
I also thought Arabic was read left to right, so was confused when I tried to translate the date and realised that from left to right it was reading 1312.
Still, even if it is 1895, its still antique, and the quality does at least speak for itself. I'm still hoping to get some more information about it if anyone can help.
Indian metalwork is more my area, but I couldn't resist this when I had a good look at it.
I would be very interested to see some of your stuff, especially the 3 metal pieces.
Any info on my tray would also be greatfully received.

Best Wishes
Gene

Gene, I share your passion. I also think that understanding the concepts of metalwork technigue, quality and beauty of "other" items will help one to understand the similar in respect to weapons, even if the different techniques are used to produce them. The concept of "old" and "new" is something that can be learned by analysing the "tray" and applying it to the scabbard fittings, blade decorations, etc. Certainly it is not a substitute, but a helpful addition to one's knowledgebase.
Just think - is there a person who can produce a similar work as on your tray now. I seriously doubt it:-) Being a 19th century, it is certainly an antique, made most likely in Isfahan, Persia, in Qajari style, which is not specific to only metalwork, but textile (especially Persian carpets!), woodwork, etc. Similarly patterned cartouches/panels are common on Qajar weapons (but in larger proportions, as it is harder to produce on hard steel). I'd be interesting to see similarity of the Qajari, and other styles of weapon decorations, in comparison to other objects.