Lance?
 

just picked these up this week, billed as a 'ANTIQUE NATIVE NORTH AMERICAN INDIAN LANCE SPEAR ENDS'

somehow i do not see them as native american, but that is not my area of collection, my family is part blackfoot, but don't think we've used lances in the past....

the two little bumps along the edge are a bit odd, the edge is sharp to just before them, and the chisel point is also sharp & appears made that way & not a broken tip. forging is rough & undecorated. tail piece also rough forged, some compacted clay soil was in the grooved bit. sockets are 20mm. OD.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...nce003_DCE.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...nce001_DCE.jpg

Look a bit like Naga spears? Like the one top left.

methinks, kind sir, that you are most correct:

a side-by-side comparison of mine & your photo.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...comparison.jpg
yrs. lost a bit of detail on blowing it up to match.

i noted this pair on the internet:
http://www.johngair.com/images/T555A.JPG
notation being the ones decorated with hair are ceremonial, mine looks more like a user with function more important than form..... the description also mentions the butt spike used to stick it in the ground, it was not leaned against a wall. it said also the shaft would be made of 'some type of wood', guess rattan might be a good choice, they also note they were about 6 ft. long & 'effective for about 30 yards' so i guess they were meant to be throwable. they apparently were used in pairs, with the dao short sword for close work....

Nicely done Tim! Spot on as always :) I was puzzled by these, but felt as well that they were not Native American. Most of the steel examples of Native American seem to have fully formed socket and similar leaf type head with central ridge, typically Spanish colonial provenance.

Kronckew, it is most interesting on your mention of Blackfoot ancestry. During travels through the plains last summer, I became very interested in Native American weapons, and it seems at one time or another we were always passing through, or often encamped at, various tribal lands.

I wanted to let you know that the Blackfoot confederation were considered one of the most dominant tribal factions, and often most feared by both White and other tribes with whom they were at odds. These warriors did indeed use the lance, however thier lance heads were typically bone, with a concave cross section ("Mystic Warriors of the Plains", Thomas E. Mails, N.Y.1972, p.447) ; or of bluestone, with a rather flat cross section. These bluestone heads were outstandingly made, and quite heavy, often serving as an effective club (op.cit.p444). The war lances shafts were often highly decorated and shorter than the undecorated hunting lance shafts. It is said the shorter the shaft, the greater the courage of the warrior.

While this topic typically finds limited interest here, I was pleased you brought it up with your post and note, and couldnt resist the temptation to share some information on this extremely important plains tribe.

All the best,
Jim

Hi,
like Jim, I am very intriqued by the fact that Native American weaponary rarely appears on this forum, with so many on this forum living on 'that side of the pond' .... is there any particular reason :confused:

Ethnographic weapons indiginous to the UK would be many centuries old and way...way out of my price range. ;)


Regards David

Hi David,
I think the fact that for the most part, actual weapons are somewhat rare, and there are of course constant doubtful examples of course for sale at unbelievable prices. I think you had mentioned before your interest in these weapons, and it seems there are some others, but the topic seldom reaches in depth follow up. I think one of the last discussions were on tomahawks and one on markings found on arrows.

It is interesting though, as these are true American ethnographic weapons.


All the best,
Jim

hi jim,

interesting item on the northern 'blackfeet'. my family are from no. alabama, and would be more properly considered cherokee-blackfeet i guess. not apparently related to the plains tribe. there is disagreement on the internet as to where the 'blackfoot' (which is an english word) part came from, some people say it was from native american mixing with slaves in the carolinas. our family stuff shows us living in the general area all the way back tho.

anyhow, great granny was a full blooded indian of some sort from no. alabama, we have sepia family photos of her in the family album in full native dress, the members of the family of my generation were mostly 6 to 7 ft. tall, very slender with straight black hair, high cheekbones and hooked noses, my son is 6'2'' but blonde & blue eyed and huskily built (german genes from my side), i was told GG Granny was 'blackfoot' tribe, that may be a mangled translation of an old indian word for their branch, or some other tribe entirely. likely one of the 'civilised' south eastern tribes that got assimilated or robbed in the big land grab of the early 1800's. made us very leery of strangers from up nawth and of revenoors and sech.

they may or may not have fought with lances way back when, but we have records of our branch fighting for the confederacy (with sabre, and cap & ball rifles and colts tho - mebbe with a tomahawk thrown in for good measure ;) ).

and that reminds me of my very first edged weapons purchase back in the late 1960's
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...awk002_DCE.jpg
which has been with me on my military tours inside & outside CONUS, and a few northern polar sea voyages, as well as my time in saudi and here in the UK. (had to get a pic of that in as we diverted to no. american ethnic weaponry.)

I sorta figgered you were from that neck of the woods Kronckew, since you're manning the CSA consulate over there :)! Thank you for posting that tomahawk!! very nice!
I'm not too sure on the differences between Blackfeet and Blackfoot tribes by the name, and I know I came across its origin somewhere, but have to find it. It gets pretty complicated as there are variations in different regions as you note. My family is from the Dakotas and I always have hoped to validate the family lore that says we have Native American blood from a grandmother way back when, and I try to imagine which of the multitude of tribes she might have come from. The Sioux consisted of many tribal groups that comprised the nation or confederation, and I understand they had come largely from the east, yet covered regions as far west as nearly to Washington.
These tribes were of course always moving around, even before the government decided to help :( so trying to be more exact in regional locations gets pretty complicated.

My brother in law is of both Cherokee and Apache ancestry from North Texas, and is very keen on the Cherokee regiment that fought for the South during the "War Between the States" (as I was always corrected while living in Nashville whenever I said 'Civil War').

The Native American culture, ancestry and history is one that has often been misunderstood, misrepresented and never really fully appreciated until fairly recent times. The more I learn on it, the more fascinated I become, and as I travel I cannot resist trying to see the historical locations as I come upon them.

All the best,
Jim