Restoration Workshop Library.
 

Jim McDougall

Salaams,
The Forum has some excellent restoration projects which have been carried out most professionally and up to museum standard. May I suggest that we put together an A to Z of restoration equipment techniques and proceedures with all the majical hints and ideas that so many of the forum experts have; so that we can have an ongoing library that members can log into. Not everyone knows for example how to use lemon salt or aluminium baking foil to remove rust spots nor may they be aware of the latest wax or polish on the market for just that restoration task.
How to restore wootz for example? :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I find this a good idea, I do however have a few buts.
One is, that some of the more experienced collectors use strong chemicals, which can not be recommended to less experienced collectors. Another is that restoration of a weapon, although it is very individual how it is made from collector to collector, is likely to be made more 'brutal' when made by an inexperienced collector.
This would mean that the posts would have to be classified like recommendable, be careful and so on, and who would do that?
Jens

Hi Ibrahiim,
I think this is an outstanding idea!

While personally extremely conservative on the restoration of weapons, I think there are times when a very worn and damaged weapon is deserving of such attention to return it to a reasonable status quo. It seems these kinds of questions come up often enought that perhaps an organized system for recommended handling and workable tips might be beneficial. I think this would serve well to emplace certain caveats as well, in response to Jens well placed note......the very last thing we want to see is weapons damaged or compromised by poorly applied treatments, so the use of this specialized area would hopefully prevent such things.

Looking forward to further input and suggestions on facilitating this idea.

All best regards,
Jim

Excellent idea, i very much agree! Many experienced people here have tried to teach me how to etch but its not that easy to learn or to sum up the courage to do something that may damage an item.

I think the best idea is to actually make a video of the etching process, with detailed pictures of each material to be used and even whats NOT to use. Such a video will save time and precious weapons alot more then textual education i believe, one also must put in mind that even though the majority of us speak english fluently, it is still not "easy" for most of us to fully understand a lesson textually especially without images/vids.

Care Please
 

Whilst I agree with Ibrahiim, that a "library of restoration" is a good idea and maybe warrants a "Sticky" if it progresses that far, I believe that one needs to define "restoration" before anything is put together.
To me restoration is NOT returning an item to NEW condition. What we collect in most cases is HISTORY and that can very easily be destroyed by careless use of such things as grinding wheels, and replacement of old parts with new. IMHO that is doing nothing but creating a REPLICA of the original.
By all means clean off rust etc., and repair broken parts, but to UNNECESSARILY replace with NEW parts in my opinion is destructive. :mad:

Stu,

I think this phrase should be taken in context and case by case.
A little while back I had a unique and prize jian fully restored for a client.
It was in pieces and lacked the correct guard. Now it has replaced hilt timbers, antiqued ray skin and new aged guard with the same patina as the rest of the sword and is one of the most stunning Jian I have laid eyes on.

Without this process of NEW parts, to sum it up, it would be a pig and unusable or appreciated.

Gav

Just a question: what is the proper way to secure the crossguard on a kilij?
Long time ago, Artzi suggested wrapping a thin ribbon of leather at the "ricasso" , glue it, mount the guard and then filling the cavity with some hardening material for a secure bond ( epoxy as per his recommendation). This works very well from the mechanical point of view.
But I am just wondering whether anybody knows an alternative method?

I think this is a good idea and have mentioned in a few threads that it would be nice to have restoration techniques (DIY guides) put in a single package. Another, useful reference would be what and where to source materials for restoration. Wood is a particular problem, locally sourced wood used in the manufacture of weapons, scabbards, hilts etc are often difficult to find in our native countries. So ID's of the original wood used would be great so that you have a chance of repairing/replacing with the authentic material or have the information to make enquiries abroad to source the correct timber.

Information on the original manufacturing techniques and substances (natural glues, stains etc) are extremely useful for restoration too. For instance I had to re-haft a Zulu spearhead.....using their methods I was able to replicate a reasonably 'authentic' spear.....although the wood is incorrect, it is a good substitute.

Kind Regards David

Agreed and that is why I used the word UNNECESSARILY.
There is one other aspect to this and that is that we all like to try to collect GENUINE items, and with the very excellent restoration done by some, there COULD be danger in future years for somebody unwittingly buying what APPEARS to be a genuine piece in excellent condition, at a very high price, when in fact it is not original.
We do not all have the expertise to identify replaced parts when the antiquing and aging has been carried out in a way which has MAYBE been designed to deceive.
PLEASE NOTE THAT THERE IS NO INTENTION HERE TO SUGGEST THAT THIS PRACTICE IS BEING CARRIED OUT BY MEMBERS, BUT AS WE KNOW THERE ARE SOME VERY CLEAVER COPIES COMING OUT OF ASIA THESE DAYS!!

Possibly 'Conservation' rather than 'Restoration' should be used as a title for this proposed thread/page . :shrug:

Salaams ... But its both dont you think? On the one hand its restoration which deserves a full library of on going techniques and ideas whilst on the other a couple of paragraphs on conservation as required. If I have a rusty or damaged blade, hilt, scabbard or gunbarrel etc... its the restoration I want. Thats where an alphabetical index of expanding ideas and techniques comes in very useful and is in itself "furum driven" by members adding to and expanding the library as a work in progress. :shrug: Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Quick question about maintaining old wooden hilts.

I have an old kris whose handle "drinks" up any moisture my hand lets up on it. The patina is beautiful and i do not want to affect it or change it potentially with any kind of artificial finish, but I do want to make sure that this piece outlives me by ages and to do that I would like to maintain the handle somehow. It does not have that old wood smell, but rather smells a little musty like it has not been cared for.

All I've done to it was clean it with a toothbrush and mineral spirits, then added a very very light coat of Tru-oil (Which I believe is primarily boiled Linseed Oil) diluted with more mineral spirits to better penetrate the wood. I applied this finish with a cotton cloth.

It still looks its age and I'm not looking to shine it up at all (Rather I would like to keep it as it is -- a satin/matte finish -- as opposed to adding an overly glossy/glass-like finish), but I feel as if more should be done to it to ensure that it is preserved, as the wood still rapidly "drinks" up any moisture it encounters from my hand when compared to other pieces I have.

Should I apply more coats of oil? Would using 00000 Steel Wool be appripriate for this old wood? I do not want to remove any of the patina, just preserve it as best I can without damaging or changing how it looks.

(Photos are courtesy of Erik Farrow, who I acquired this particular piece from. the handle looks the same currently, but after the toothbrush and mineral spirits the dust from the crevices are gone.)

Salaams~ This is exactly the sort of question that this forum..with the benefit a restoration section ... could fully advise, answer and follow up. ~

Peperskull that looks like a lovely old weapon and I would be reluctant to do much to it... you will find 0000 steel wool will bring out the grain(though as I say I wouldnt bother it looks great) and for me the occasional linseed action would do nicely. Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Thank you for the compliments, Ibrahiim. :)

In that case I think I will leave as is. It already looks a bit different. The dust has been cleaned out but I tried to be the least invasive possible. Used an old soft bristle toothbrush to clean the crevices and did not use any abrasives like steel wool or sandpaper. Just a cotton cloth with some tru-oil that's been diluted with mineral spirits. My goal is not to bring out a shiny or glassy surface, rather just maintain it in its current condition as much as possible. The patina and darkened (exposed) and lighter areas (Where the hilt wrapping and former fittings used to be) are still distinct.

My only concern is the amount of moisture this wood still absorbs. I want to give it a few more coats of oil to fill the grain, but am not sure how this will affect the patina. As it is, I think it is well preserved, but like I said it "drinks" up the moisture from my hand fairly quickly still.

Would a coat of Renaissance Wax help keep a reasonably safe barrier against moisture and further deterioration or should I keep oiling it till the grain is filled? If I oil it, will that affect the patina it has built? :shrug:


EDIT- Here is a pic of the entire kris in the condition I recieved it:

Hi TPS, :)

Wax would help but also tend to give a glossy finish. I agree that repeated oiling the hilt over an extended period is preferable, especially if you're from a low-humidity climate. Just make sure to work in little amounts by intensive rubbing with your hands and don't forget to remove any excess after each session, especially from the crevices. Undiluted linseed oil is great for this but you can also apply boiled linseed oil or some other hardening oil (each formula will need some adapting). I avoid mineral oil on wood or other organic materials. None of these will affect genuine patina though - the only backdrop with utilizing natural oils is that they can favor mold in high-humidity climates if not regularly handled.

The hilt of your kris looks nice and old but I do wonder why it has so open pores - the usual antique bunti doesn't absorb a lot of moisture nor oil.

I'm afraid the ferrule/clamp construction seems dubious to me. I'd guess it's either not antique or not done by traditional Moro craftsmen (or both). Also the "fit" of the hilt on the blade looks weird with the missing katik - I'd love to examine it disassembled to verify wether these ever were intended to go together (and just got compromised by later wood shrinkage/etc.) or wether this happens to be a "forced marriage"...

Regards,
Kai

Thanks for the advice and kind words, kai.

The wood on this was different than other kris I have handled in that it was not maintained very well. It was expremely dry when it came to me and smelled different than typical Bunti hilts. It did not simply smell old to me, rather it smelt overly musty in addition to smelling older. I suspect its "thirst" is due to its lack of care/maintenance through the years.

In terms of th handle, I agree! I don't think anyone could argue about the dubiousness of its current construction. Definitely not traditional moro. The makeshift clamp (I would be wary of calling it a proper asang-asang since it has no similarity to a proper asang-asang aside from function) is thin sheet brass as opposed to a thick clamp. It is the same thickness as the brass ferrule on the handle.

I believe both the ferrule and clamp to be something of a hasty repair. It was most likely done after the katik had broken off and the original asang-asang was lost. Definitely not typical moro construction, but I suspect it may have been done (In haste) by a moro who had limited repair tools, seeing as there is a clamp of some sort (Now this is just conjecture on my part-- but I suspect that if it were repaired in haste by someone outside of moro culture, the blade would simply have been glued or epoxied to the handle, maybe pinned as well, as opposed to being epoxied/clamped). Albeit the current clamp is not the prettiest.

As far as the wood hilt is concerned, I believe that it's original to the piece. The tang at the opening of the hilt fits very nicely and there is no sign IMO of it being being too loose a fit (No 'empty' space between the tang and hilt opening for additional shimming to tighten the fit or for extra epoxy filler). There ARE however, cracks at the opening that extende to the areas of the hilt were the cracks are visible in the pictures. I suspect that these cracks formed later due to wood shrinkage like you mentioned.

The construction of complete similar pieces to this were far FAR different, with there being a proper asang-asang attatched to metal fittings on the hilt and bound to the hilt with metal wire. It's hard to explain, but I will post pictures to better articulate what I mean about what I believe its original construction looked like.

Here is a couple of complete kris handles with the kind of construction I believe my kris was originally made to look like before its damage and repair. Note the metal wire binding and the asang-asang being attatched to the brass fitting near the kakatua pommel via more metal wires:

More pictures of a different kris of similar construction/assembly (Albeit this one also has the katik and asang-asang missing) that gives us an insight into how my kris was originally constructed, as it still has the metal fitting near the pommel as well as the wire wrapping:

(Also, note the cracks going down the hilt of this one. Similar to the cracks in mine. Perhaps this is a constuction flaw that was common at the time?)

(EDIT: Double post. Pls delete)

Salaams, By including posts about restoration and repair in this thread I assume you are in favour of a restoration library which is the ultimate aim of the discussion. Already I detect a main question of oil versus wax in the questions about the keris for which it seems linseed oil is better. In a library of techniques we could include in the general index oils and waxes that forum members have experience of. Currently I am makeing my own wax from beeswax and turpentine. A section on DIY products would enhance the library. Regards Ibrahiim. :shrug:

A Restoration/Conservation Library. Get's my vote. There is alot of knowledge on this Forum. Can't believe what I have learned, even as a recent member. Why not maximize this knowledge. :) Rick.

You may have removed old lime accents that have discolored over time . :shrug:

Possibly some of our Members, not staff, will undertake this compilation and present it to us for a resource page . :)

Perhaps a sub-forum for the participants to work in . :shrug: :)

Rick

This is why I should have waited before I did anything :(

Hello Rick,

I can't see any hints for lime accents on this kris hilt - looks like genuine dirt to me from the before pics. Lime is not that rare on kampilan pommels and guards (away from the gripping area); I doubt that lime would last for any reasonable period on small kris hilts though...

Regards,
Kai

Okay Kai .
Now, what about moving forward with what you Gentlemen wish for .

Salaams,
Thankyou. I agree that this requires a forum members input solution backed and supported by moderator staff.

Thinking aloud~ I see initially a sticky to carry the concepts onto an alphabetical index. I suggest that this is such a good idea that access should only be to forum members and in a way this would attract non members to join. It is therefor a marketing tool in addition to being an excellent aspect of the forum site.

Personally I believe strongly in the restoration workshop idea because it is continuous and always therefor being updated and relies upon everyone to input. It is therefor live and current and underlines the live debate and continuous interchange of ideas in our Forum. I strongly suggest that a general e mail to all members introducing this quite vital and lively restoration workshop library be sent ..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

This is such a huge subject, it would need it's own sub-forum where articles on specific elements of restoration could be posted or moved.

Sounds like an excellent idea to me. There is lots of information out there in the forums regarding 'looking after' our artefacts, but it is sometimes hard to find. A sub-forum would make it both centralized, and more easily accessible than a few sticky threads. That way preservation, conservation and restoration could all be given enough space to grow into a really useful library.

Depends On The Boss, But .....
 

A passworded private subforum can possibly be created for this effort's researchers/compilers .
I would think a half dozen dedicated people would suffice for the effort .
A lot will be search engine work on this site and others; gleaning if you will . :)

After the resource effort is completed then it could be made a regular subforum or page .

There will probably be additions to be made in the future to the list; I would suggest that they be made as PM's to that forum's future Moderator .

I strongly believe that at least *some* vetting of submitted tips and hints should be carried out .

I also think that public posting in this sub-forum should not be allowed .
We want to get information across clearly and simply; chatter would only make sorting things out harder .

This site has no commercial interests at all nor does it want to have any; everything is paid for; ain't life grand . ;)

Rick

My own area of special interest is one where ongoing restoration is an accepted and normal part of collection.

It is the normal, natural process that is applied to preserving the items which those of us involved in this sphere of tosan aji pursue.

Because of this, much of what has already been said in this thread appears to be self evident to me, and I have not contributed before now because I felt that another post in general agreement with the proposals that have been put forward would not be particularly valuable.

However, I note that Rick has suggested a way in which ongoing contributions to a resource to assist conservation/restoration could be structured in order to make it a safe and useable guide for people with varying levels of experience.

I wish to make it a matter of record that I fully endorse Rick's suggestions, and I feel that if anybody has any additional contribution or comment in respect of these suggestions, now might be a very good time to speak up.

Either we want something useable, or we do not.

Either we want a clearly structured way in which to proceed, or we do not.

The moderators and staff of our discussion group cannot function in a vacuum: - they need feedback and comment in order to make not only this idea for a restoration resource functional but indeed , for the ongoing success of our very valuable Forum.

In respect of what approach should be adopted in the restoration/conservation of historic weaponry, I feel that the philosophy of the professional restorator is probably correct:-

do as much as is necessary, and as little as is possible.