|
Appreciation
Paul Bloom, a professor of psychology from Yale has written a book titled:- "How Pleasure Works".
http://www.amazon.com/How-Pleasure-W.../dp/0393066320 I have not read it, but I recently read a review of it, and extracts from it. These were sufficient to cause my thoughts to turn towards the ways in which we appreciate keris, and keris art. Bloom has addressed the subject of how and why humans value and enjoy things. It would seem that the oft proffered advice of "buy the keris, not the story" is in fact completely contrary to the way in which we do experience, enjoy, appraise and put a dollar value on all forms of art, and this includes keris. I think many of us would have heard the story of the great violinist, Joshua Bell, who took $32 from busking in a subway, but for whom people will pay hundreds of dollars to hear perform in a concert hall. We could argue that the concert goers are paying their hundreds of dollars for a total experience --- the atmosphere, the chance to rub shoulders with important people, the opportunity to be seen, photographed, and appear in the society pages. Maybe. But the violinist is the same --- subway : concert stage. Same man, same music. But unappreciated because of place. People pay huge amounts of money for Princess Diana's old clothes. Find similar in a Salvation Army Store and you'll pay $4.50 Ditto for George Clooneys sweaters. Han van Meegeren was a brilliant forger of great art works, especially of Vermeer. In fact van Meegeren's "Supper at Emmaus" was lauded by critics as "Vermeer's" finest work. Of course they didn't know it was painted by van Meegeren. Vermeer's painting "The Woman Taken in Adultery" apparently caused people to have life changing experiences when they viewed it --- until such time as they found out it was painted by van Meegeren not by Vermeer. We are urged to consider art works, and I suppose all collectables, in an objective way. Value the work for what it is, not for who made it, who owned it, or where it has come from, but do we? It seems not, more, it seems that it is not possible for us to divorce the object from the idea of who made it, who has owned it, and where it is from. The object is always accompanied by ideas that refer to the object, but are not part of it. Indeed , it seems we are hard wired to always buy the story, and that story can be presented in a number of ways, it need not necessarily be the crude deceptions of a shonky dealer. If we consider the subject that concerns us most here, the keris, I believe we would all agree that a keris by Mpu Jayasukadgo is infinitely more desirable than a keris by one of the current era makers. However, viewed in a totally objective way, that Jayasukadgo keris may be no better than one turned out by a current era maker. We have given the Jayasukadgo a greater level of desirability, and hence value, simply because it is attributed to him --- and note this:- it is only an attribution, not a certainty, still it can make an enormous difference in value, and in our perceived appreciation. In other words we've bought the story. If all this is so, and Paul Bloom appears to have demonstrated that it is so, then this raises a question:- Exactly what is it that we appreciate, enjoy, and pay good money for when we indulge ourselves in our interest and add another keris to the collection? Are we paying for the keris, appreciating the keris, or are we feeding something in our sub-conscious that helps us to escape from the mundane? A long time ago I coined a phrase:- "The Silk Road Syndrome" . I intended it to refer to that nostalgic longing that many of us have for 'far away places with strange sounding names'. The empty spaces. The sunlit beaches. The smell of incense in the still evening air. A temple gong whispering through a purple twilight. Thoughts and half memories that play unbidden in the back of our minds and help us get through another trial balance, another oil change, another brick in the wall --- depending upon how we support ourselves. It occurs to me that when we add that extra keris --- or whatever --- to the collection, what we are really doing is contributing to our life support system. Putting something in place that helps us to open a window to a world a little less mundane than the one we live in, and in turn help us to keep focused on the need to plod on with burden of job, family, career. The object of our collecting becomes a key that opens that window. I would welcome the thoughts of others on the link between the appreciation of art and objects and the maintenance of sanity in a world that is rapidly decreasing in size at the same time that it is equally rapidly increasing in ordinariness. |
There is almost nothing to add.
It seems to me, if we reduce all what is grown culturally around a certain thing, there stays a fetish. Fetish is absolutely necessary for a human mind. What kind of fetish it is, depends on familiar background (also historical period), ambitions and intellectual abilities of a person (which mostly are not equally developed and serve as a lovely entertaining picture for some comparatively seen wise people). And the layer of civilisation is probably thinner and lesser as one can expect, even if persons are regarded and regard themselves as intellectual. |
I read a short story .
That story led me to the keris . The Keris led me here . This forum exists because of that story . Add me to the Silk Road Gang, maritime branch . :D I have two named maker pieces, both are signifigant to Modern Keris history . Mostly I buy for the keris; I see keris making as an exercise in achieving excellence within a proscribed form (Haiku in Iron?) . The challenge is to be able to recognise that excellence when it is seen . I bought the story years ago . ;) |
Ah, well.
Rick, I think you perhaps might suffer from the equally well known Conrad Syndrome, rather than the Silk Road Syndrome. I used to suffer from this myself, after I saw a movie that focused heavily on Surabaya and sailing ships. I was probably about 12 at the time. But I'm cured now. |
1 Attachment(s)
Without inspiration and dreams where would we be? Those and a lot of persistance make for a full life.
|
We all justify our purchases/collections.
My dad thinks my kerises are worth little and I have thrown all my money down the drain... But they are worth the world to me, and I would spend a huge part of my disposable income on them. :D |
Me too.
|
Sorry ?
Just bought a newer car . Having the kitchen remodeled . Added a Garden Shed, and maybe air conditioning . What is this substance you refer to as "disposable income" ? :confused: :D |
Appreciation
Alan,
What a wonderful fire-ball to throw into the Keris-Warung- Kopi hearth,the puzzlying nature of human pleasure.I've not read the book,but in a review I see that the author argues that pleasure is not primarily a response to certain perceptual and sensory experiences,but instead has a significant cognitive component,what we think about has a huge impact on how much pleasure we derive from it. I'm a collector of keris,my appreciation was,and still is the complexity of a keris.I have,over time come to understand that a keris comprises many components,handle and fittings,sheath,and blade.I certainly gain more knowledge about the keris,and the community in which they were and still are made and used by reading,looking at as many keris as I can,and by visiting this site. I know that part of my pleasure is being able to learn more,I suppose why else would I be here on the web. But my pleasure is not in the dollar value,although it is a factor.Business and pleasure can co-exist I enjoy showing keris to friends,collectors and non-collectors who are interested. I sometimes wonder if the pleasure is just the ability to escape from the discipline of every-day working life.But then why not just listen to Bill Frissell playing jazz guitar,or almost any Beethoven music. I don't know why I don't have the same fascination for Japanese,or Indian edged weapons,,why do I get more pleasure from keris,especially those from Java. I think it is a very subjective issue,and I agree that many friends and family don't share my pleasure.Though some do,it's hard not to resist the odour of Indonesia.Once a friend picks up a keris,looks at the blade,wonders about the pamour,or sniffs scented wood then they have been affected by the fire ball. |
Quote:
Now you'd have motivation to get a smaller car, live with the good ol' kitchen and do without the shed that you never actually needed... :p :p :p |
:D :D :D :D
Words escape me right now !! Are you a married Guy Kai Wee ? ;) :D Yes, the kerisses take me away from the mundane plastic world that we endure daily . An investment in sanity if you will . |
A great and complicated question. I think my pleasure in collecting involves a number of aspects.
The first is the thrill of the hunt. I think there is a little bit of treasure hunter in all of us. Rummaging through an old garage sale and stumbling onto a nice antique weapon, albeit a rarer occurance these days, is quite enjoyable. The second is having a tangible link to the past. I think we collectors have vivid imaginations and I like to imagine the journey a 300 year old sword has had from point of origin to my hands today. I have learned more about world history through the study of swords than I ever did in the classroom. But letting my imagination run rampant is most enjoyable. The third is an appreciation of the skill and artistry exhibited in these pieces. These aesthetics bring joy to the artistic side of my brain. When you look closely there are always so many minute points of detail to enjoy. From time to time, I find something new to enjoy in a piece I have had for years and this is enjoyable. The old saying, "They don't make them like they used to" is so true. I have noticed that the more I learn about my sword collection the more I appreciate what I have. It seems the more I appreciate what I have, the more I want to learn. It is a never ending loop. |
Quote:
The first is the thrill of the hunt. Must admit there is nothing like finding a great buy in an unusual place. Hardly the first concern for me as i tend to buy most of my keris from established dealers. But every now and then finding an undiscovered treasure can be exhilarating. :) The second is having a tangible link to the past. I think this is an important one for me. The vast majority of my collection are antique keris. It isn't important to me if it once belonged to a peasant or a sultan, but i am most interested in keris that actual found a life within the context of a past Indonesian culture. So the exact story is relatively unimportant to me. I am more interested that there is an undiscovered and perhaps undiscoverable story there. Actually the only keris i ever bought for the "story" was a contemporary Maduran naga keris of little quality, but it was once owned by the captain of the Picton Castle, a three-masted barque that yearly sails clear around the world with stops in Bali. I was fascinated by how well travelled this piece was since it had circumnavigated the global many, many times making it perhaps the most well-travelled keris in the world. :) I know the story is true because i bought it from the captain himself, who proudly showed me his replacement keris a rather gaudy naga with nasty brass "kinatah" all over it. I much preferred his older, less adorned companion. It was a story and concept well worth the $50 i paid for it. :) The third is an appreciation of the skill and artistry exhibited in these pieces. This is most definitely a major consideration for me. I simply marvel at the sheer beauty of the keris, from blade to even the simplest of dress. This is what also keeps me open to acquiring contemporary pieces from time to time as i can maintain in my collection levels of artistic achievement that i might not otherwise be able to afford in an antique keris. I must disagree Rick, because i think that in many way they do still "make them like they used to" and in some ways they make them even better (artistically). The levels of artistic accomplishment in keris making today are superb. I would also add that for me the interest of keris goes beyond history and into mystery. I am fascinated by the mythology behind it and the culture from which it is born, living on the edge between the seen and unseen worlds. There is a lure of magick and mysticism here, which while horribly over played to the gullible for commercial allure is non-the-less a reality that is special to a time and a place that is presently at risk of vanishing completely from the face of the earth. |
Thank you gentlemen for your responses, and I do hope more responses from others will follow.
Reading these responses what I am seeing is a recital of the reasons why we collect, as we ourselves see those reasons. Speaking for myself, I am uncertain that I can clearly identify why I continue to collect keris. The keris has been a part of my life for so long that taking a keris into my care has become almost an automatic response. In recent years, say, the last ten years or so, when I buy a keris that I identify as one that is to be kept, it is almost as if on the first moment that I see it, there is a cord that runs from the keris to me. I usually do not examine it critically, and condition is of absolutely no importance, that keris goes home with me. Other times I will buy a keris for myself just because I recognise its quality, or rarity, but often a purchase of this type lacks that "connective" element. So, that's how I buy, but why do I buy? I don't really know, except that it is what I do. However, if I go back a long way in time, I can very clearly recall that being in contact with keris was something that took me into another world. Maybe the reason why this doesn't happen now is because to a large extent I have been living in that other world --- albeit a modern version of it --- for many years now. We can all probably rationalise our collecting in one way or another, however, I would like to put forth the idea that at its roots, our collecting is an emotional activity that is the product of memories and experiences stored in the sub-conscious, and the activities that we undertake when we collect, give us with access to those stored memories and experiences, providing pleasure and assisting in the maintenance of mental balance in our increasingly difficult world. As Rick said:- An investment in sanity if you will . |
Quote:
I basically agree with what has been said but just want to add this: Collecting is a state of mind and an addiction (ask your family and friends) but unlike drinking, gambling, or taking drugs it is a positive one in my opinion. Best regards Jean |
Jean, addiction is a bit strong; no ? ;)
An Addict would bankrupt himself collecting ... :D :eek: For me; I collect when I can; but I know someday it will also be time for me to stop . I will be content with what I have . A collection can be a great burden on one's heirs . Museums just let 'em rust . :shrug: |
Quote:
When there is possession, there must be loss of possession; when there is a gathering together, there must be a scattering - this is the constant principle in things. Someone loses a bow; another person finds a bow; what's so special in that? The reason why I have recorded this story from beginning to end in such detail is to let it serve as a warning for scholars and collectors in later generations. from Records on Metal and Stone, Li Qing-zhao, written during the second year of the Shao-xing Reign (1132), Song Dynasty, China The collecting of things appears to fulfill some deep-seated need on our part as humans; my only disagreement with Alan's hypothesis would be that it is not just a modern phenomenon, as we can date collecting in China to as far back as the Han Dynasty (206 BCE - 220 CE). Perhaps the need for refuge from everyday life was as great back then as it is now. |
Laowang, your quotation is accurate and appropriate, and cannot be faulted.
However, I will offer one correction:- I have not put forward a hypothesis. What I am looking for is the opinions of others in respect of the foundations of our appreciation of those things which we may choose to collect. |
Should we look to the fetish bag as possibly the first incarnation of collecting ?
|
Rick, what started my reflections upon this question was what I understood as related in my first post.
It appears that when we encounter something we think about that something not objectively, in isolation from all our previous experience, but subjectively . It appears that we cannot but react in this way. So, when we encounter something that relates to our field of collecting we are already thinking about that something in terms of what we already have in our minds. In other words, we cannot but help to "buy the story". Perhaps not the story that is laid before us by Mr. Shonk, but rather the story that we probably self generated in our own sub-conscious from various inputs over a length of time. If asked, we could probably not even identify the "story" that is influencing us. My enquiry is an attempt to get each of us to try to look into the very foundations of his own urge to collect. We might have one person who identifies his collecting urge with investment, perhaps because of something he read or some experience that has convinced him he is wiser to place money into matchbox cars than into blue chips. We might have somebody who begins to float (mentally , a la morphine) when he handles particular type of paper weight. Perhaps a type of hairpin might take somebody back to childhood in grandma's house, so that person collects hairpins, in order to revisit a gentler time with each handling of a hairpin. The collector of hairpins probably does not consciously know this, but he or she does know that when the hairpin is handled an indefinable warm glow occurs. All sorts of different things could cause all sorts of different reactions, and these different causes are currently what my thoughts are concerned with. You told us that you "read a short story", and that awkened your interest in the keris. Very well, accepted. But what did that short story implant into your mind, and what effect does that implantation have upon your perception and appreciation of the keris? Do you understand where I'm going with this? |
Quote:
|
Well Done !
I bow in your general direction , Sir . :D
|
Quote:
So I must quote; this is a snippet of the implant and the dream and longing it awoke : -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "We knew him in those unprotected days when we were content to hold in our hands our lives and our property. None of us, I believe, has any property now, and I hear that many, negligently, have lost their lives; but I am sure that the few who survive are not yet so dim-eyed as to miss in the befogged respectability of their newspapers the intelligence of various native risings in the Eastern Archipelago. Sunshine gleams between the lines of those short paragraphs--sunshine and the glitter of the sea. A strange name wakes up memories; the printed words scent the smoky atmosphere of to-day faintly, with the subtle and penetrating perfume as of land breezes breathing through the starlight of bygone nights; a signal fire gleams like a jewel on the high brow of a sombre cliff; great trees, the advanced sentries of immense forests, stand watchful and still over sleeping stretches of open water; a line of white surf thunders on an empty beach, the shallow water foams on the reefs; and green islets scattered through the calm of noonday lie upon the level of a polished sea, like a handful of emeralds on a buckler of steel. There are faces too--faces dark, truculent, and smiling; the frank audacious faces of men barefooted, well armed and noiseless. They thronged the narrow length of our schooner's decks with their ornamented and barbarous crowd, with the variegated colours of checkered sarongs, red turbans, white jackets, embroideries; with the gleam of scabbards, gold rings, charms, armlets, lance blades, and jewelled handles of their weapons. They had an independent bearing, resolute eyes, a restrained manner; and we seem yet to hear their soft voices speaking of battles, travels, and escapes; boasting with composure, joking quietly; sometimes in well-bred murmurs extolling their own valour, our generosity; or celebrating with loyal enthusiasm the virtues of their ruler. We remember the faces, the eyes, the voices, we see again the gleam of silk and metal; the murmuring stir of that crowd, brilliant, festive, and martial; and we seem to feel the touch of friendly brown hands that, after one short grasp, return to rest on a chased hilt." Bang !!! I was a goner . I had my connection to the dreams, longings, and adventure of my Youth in something tangible . |
2 Attachment(s)
Hi all,
Given this some quick thought and here it is. These are normal stuff, all I had done is put it in writing and I may not be able to defend this much. I had a lot of stuff going on in my mind and I just write up whatever goes through at the moment with no critical analysis. Sorry if i got it all wrong or if i go out of topic. From what I see, 3 general factors that govern lives of most of us are God, Glory and Gold (first figure). I think there’s a clear relationship between gold and glory. The relationship between God and the other two is subjective to our perception and sensitive and I’m not going to touch that. If we agree that these are the main purpose of our life then, everything that we do would evolve around these three factors. (Not all of the purposes are my own purposes in life/collecting, i am just trying to generalise what is the common objectives and I am not suggesting these as your goals in life/collecting as well) Now, we have an “extra” purpose in our lives which is keris collecting. The three normal purposes why people collect and/or study keris are investment, status symbol and historic values/cultural relationship. While collecting as a tool for our investment and status symbol is quite obvious, there’s also people who collect/keep keris for it’s historic values/cultural relationship. These kerises are kept by museums, inheritors and general keris enthusiasts. The common governing factor in achieving the first two objectives for collecting (investment and status) is quality. While inheritors and museums commonly can’t be bothered by quality, general keris enthusiasts will most likely go for that as a human nature (be it tangible or not). If we construct the three purposes for collecting in a set (as we did in the first figure), we can see that this “extra” purpose is not really an extra since there’s a strong relationship between the two initial purpose of life - gold and glory with investment and status. Indirectly, investment and status can also be indirectly linked to God/doing good which again won’t discuss here. So, is there any link for people that collect keris for its history and cultural relationships with God/doing any good? I think it also got something to do with quality. Since most collectors would spend most of their time trying to understand this. – To get a better investment and portrayal of their status. Along the way we actually collect experience and knowledge. Not just about keris but about life in general. Therefore, the key word here is understanding quality. We can’t collect keris with the single aim of, say status symbol alone. For example, when we collect keris as a status symbol it is like wearing “nice” clothes when going to the mall or to the office. Why can’t we be bothered to dress like that when going to bed? Coz no one’s looking. Who decides whether our clothes are cool or not? It’s the media. Quality can be secondary in this business. Women can wear stilettos and hurt their ankles and say that’s quality fashion wear. People can have their hair dyed purple and if the TV people say that it’s cool, they would probably think that they are on the right track. You can wear a plain sweater you got for Christmas to the office but if the media says it is out of date and you look like a geek you may end up throwing it away. However on second thought, when we know quality and choose to keep a high quality keris it does not mean that we are after the status or investment. (Which makes Figure 2 inaccurate (?) any other suggestions?.. now i myself am confused :D). Ok, nevermind the diagram. If we know to quantify quality, we can have a keris, keep it in a drawer and studies/wonders about its history and feel good about it without relying on weather other people say it’s good or not. In other words, we must know the real quality. Not just the stuff commonly understood by normal people. Again, to achieve that level we must undergo the quality identification/quantification process described above. It takes knowledge to quantify quality and if we really know quality we can’t be bothered what other people say about it. So, what’s quality got to do with God/doing good? It lies in the knowledge gained in attaining the knowledge about it. A big time keris collector and a long time dealer/collector in Malaysia died last year. For the big time collector, none of his children enjoys keris very much. They are very rich people and his children had chosen to leave the kerises in his private gallery. As for the other one dealer/collector, his collections were sold off by his son. No more glory, no more gold to enjoy. What is left is the good that they had done. In conclusion, my current opinion is that although investment, status symbol and cultural/history purposes in keris collecting may lead to doing something good, quality understanding is the most important part in keris collecting since it would lead to the ultimate objective(?) in collecting which is probably to leave a trail of useful and critical knowledge that would be useful to one's nation or perhaps to mankind – true keris making skills, knowledge and quality publications that have good references and would stand to critical evaluation. Unfortunately, i think we will need more than 20 years of critical experience before we can even consider leaving our "trail of knowledge" or we may run the risk of spreading the wrong knowledge IMHO. This "trail of knowledge" would complete "Link x" in Figure 1. i.e I am suggesting that whatever purpose we have in life we must link it with God/doing good. |
Yes Rick, that's exactly where I'm going.
Trying to identify what goes on in our minds. As I said, you suffer from the Conrad Syndrome. This quote is from Karain, isn't it? I was born in 1941, in the middle of WWII, so in 1945 when it concluded, I would have been only four years old. My mother's cousin was an inmate of Changi prison camp during WWII, and at the conclusion of hostilities he chose not to return to Australia, but to go back into Malaya (as it was then) and live with a woman he had met before he became an inmate of Changi. Sometime after that, maybe one or two years, I really don't know how long, but I was still a little kid, he came back to Australia to visit his mother, before going back to Malaya again. I was present at the family meeting that celebrated his return, I heard the stories and they made a lasting impression. During the time he was in Malaya he sent small gifts home to his mother. One of those gifts was a keris. This was the first keris that I handled, and I can still remember it, 60 odd years later. A lot more experience and knowledge came after that, but my mother's cousin living in Malaya was the beginning, and the physical keris was originally the link to the imagined place from his stories, and the retold stories about him that I overheard from the adults around me. |
Rasdan, I doubt that I have ever read a better logical analysis of the motivation to collect.
If this is the result of your "quick thought " process, your "deep thought" process frightens me. However, this is not really what interests me at the moment. I'm trying to go beyond the rational and logical to the emotional foundation. Human beings can learn to be rational and logical, but the human nature is an emotional one that logic and rationality are grafted onto. What I'm trying to do is identify that emotional level, the level which underlies the logical level. What goes on in our minds to cause something else to happen? I started this thread with reference to the work of Prof. Bloom, where he puts forward evidence to support the idea that we cannot appreciate art in a vacuum. The art is appreciated against a sub conscious background that has been constructed from our previous experience. If this applies to art, and Prof. Bloom seems to have demonstrated that it does, then it probably applies to most other things within the human experience. The appreciation of what we are concerned with here, that is, keris, is very close to, indeed overlaps, the appreciation of art. What I am looking for are the emotional strands that underlie that appreciation. |
Personal Strands
I went for my first sail when I was 6 months .
Harrison Smith was my ancestor; we always had exotic pieces around the house . http://www.pacsoa.org.au/places/Tahiti/tahitiB.html He died before I was 1 . I grew up on the Water . I read The Pearl Lagoon . Might as well blame NC Wyeth, Frank Schoonover. and others of the great Illustraters as well . Stevenson; who can leave him out ? Arthur Ransome was my first favorite author . Peter Duck; now there's good kid's yarn . Patrick O'Brian my last . O'Brian was the frosting on the cake . I believe all these experiences created the emotional strands for me . I was set up ! Rick |
Thanks for the additions Rick.
That's exactly it. The formative influences that create a matrix in the sub conscious against which we measure things.When we get a hit, that triggers feelings, and these feelings motivate us. How about 'The Coral Island', did that get a run? Kids stuff, yeah, but it made a mark in its day. 'Two Years Before the Mast'? |
Ah Man, I was set up from birth, I'm afraid . :D
I think some of us lucky Westerners are . For me the keris undoubtedly represents these feelings and emotions in a tangible form . I just wish I had found the keris earlier in my life . Those paragraphs from Conrad I quoted ? They set me on fire . Coral Island . I'll look it up . |
I think I have a handle on what you are getting at now Alan.
As you know I am a keen collector of Japanese art and I have explored my emotional links to this but until you asked the question I had not really thought about my emotional links to the keris. They seem to stem from my family which is not because of Javanese connections, I am fifth generation australian, with Irish and English on both sides. My family does not follow a pattern of occupations, we have tradesmen, professionals, farmers, public servants, priests, artists and a few eccentrics including my grandfather's brother and his son. Both sadly deceased, both fascinating gents. Stan my great uncle owned a private museum at Kurnell south of Sydney. Kurnell is famous in Australia as the place where Captain Cook first set foot on mainland Australia. It was full of exotic things, jaws of great white sharks, old divers suits, steam cars, convict chains, settlers gear and also some old weaponary. And now that I think back I'm sure that was the first place I ever saw a keris. Stan told me some of his collection came from the East Indies, which was as exotic a place as a kid could think of in Australia in the early 1960's. His son Roy was a dealer in second hand stuff, not antiques just second hand anything. His shop was in Sutherland which I know was not far from where you grew up. He accumulated personal collections of all sorts of things, I remember his shaving mug collection particularly. Roy gave me my first edged weapon, an old Martini Henry bayonet, and whenever something else turned up he would let me know. I collected knives and swords and bayonets for quite a long time but eventually they all got put away and forgotton about.........Until somewhere 40 years or more down the track keris turned up in my life again and it immediately became necessary to collect them. Those 2 relatives have a lot to answer for. I remember them fondly :D |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:12 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.