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Testing members tastes for firearms
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I take it that firearms also belong in this Forum; the thing is whether there are members interested in this sort of things.
We know Jim is not so much of a fan of this stuff; i don't know about Ed. I love the looks of this specimen. Anyone knows what it is ... or willing to know ? ... before i tell the little i ( think i) know about it. Fernando |
fernando, feel free ...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...s/IMG_4528.jpg :D my interests are very broad. |
Hey, watch where your'e aiming that thing at; it might be loaded :eek: .
Allright, i'm convinced :shrug: . Fernando |
Without going thru books to verify it, those proof marks look british. Could this be a coach gun or warders gun of some sort?
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Being Italian, I've always wanted to get my hands on a genuine Lupara.
http://www.svetmafie.szm.sk/load_maf/lupara.gif |
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After a while my father get rid of it as the local authorities started to get more strict with, let's say... unorthodox... guns. But I have to admit it had quite a... "romantic"... halo. :cool: My apologies for the nostalgic digression, but this brought me memories :) |
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These things were usualy a setup made with parts from different origins, mostly that of the barrels. Often a result of regional assembly, by the local smiths. They were largely used in the Peninsula in the beg/mid XIX century, when civilians needed to assure their safety, firstly from invading army astray guys (Napoleonic wars) and later from a consequent troubled period, where outlaws or desperate assailants abunded. They were very short and handy, easy to conceal under the owner's cape. This particular one has indeed a .75 British barrel, shortened to 17 inches and "atrabucado" or "abacamartado" ( muzzle widened), mounted on a stock so called "a la Catalunian", and equiped with an action lock of the "patilha" (Miquelete) type, of late generation. Note this is originaly for percussion and not converted from flint, as so often seen. The barrel was made by some famous John Clive. The trigger guard and ram rod pipe are also British. Although its stock and lock are basicaly Spanish, this doesn't avoid that it could have being assembled in Portugal. Both cultures and methods were not so strange to each other. It could have also been brought by some Spaniard through the borders, which at the time were not so well defined. In fact, the seller has traded it very close from the (nowadays) Spanish frontier. Anyway, i find it a very elegant piece. Fernando |
Firearms aren't my field. But looking at the pictures of these weapons, I must admit they have an atraction.
As always I'm willing to learn. During collecting you see many weapons. Learning about it, broadens your horizon. |
Actually my interests get broader every day, and firearms of these earlier periods very much interest me. I especially like these 'trabuco's' as I always knew them from Southern California where I grew up....close to us was a location known as "Trabuco Canyon'. One cannot discount the romantic allure of these powerful guns, and I always think of "The Highwayman".
I once had a great 1880's 12 guage 'coach gun' and had great visions of these discouraging the inevitable bandits. There is something incredibly intimidating about a sawed off shotgun......and for a surprise 'visitor' in the wee hours of the morning, that unmistakable sound of a pump 'guage'!!! |
Hi Jim,
Do you know the story about Trabuco Canyon and other nearby trabuco landmarks? Apparently, some poor grunt of a soldier in the Portola expedition lost his blunderbuss around Trabuco Creek, and they not only named Trabuco Canyon and Trabuco Mesa after the incident. Ouch. Lesson is, don't lose your piece when on an expedition of discovery. The story Blunder on! Fearn |
Old/Antique Firearms---YES
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Hi Fernando---yes I believe that firearms DO have a place here. My collection over the years has had may firearms of different types in it, but now, due mainly to space available, is not mostly composed of blades. I do still have one item which compliments my collection of Arabian Peninsula blades. It is an old 577/450 cal Martini Henry Rifle, which is decorated in silver. This item came from Oman.
I do keep an eye out for firearms still, and if something particularly took my fancy and was not at a crazy price, I could well be tempted. There is not (as far as I know) a Forum of this type for old firearms, though if there is, perhaps someone can publish the details. Maybe a further sub heading on this Forum?? Pics attached. |
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I reckon my tastes favour specimens prior to center fire ... more to the muzzle loading version ... percussion or, if available and affordable, flint. It's already quite fine that this new Forum was born ( or reborn) and things are not so bad this way. While the main ethnographic Forum now covers also firearms, we have in this one European firearms, which implicitely cover edged and also firearms. It just about does it. We just have to hope there are members interested in feeding this section; even if just a fraction of the quorum that assists the main discussion one ... well, a decent fraction :cool: Fernando |
personally i prefer firearms from 1900 on.
springfield 1903 in 30.06 m1 garand mosin nagant 7.52 mm m-14 modern automatic weapons (fun to fire) (G-3/G-36, SIG 550, AK5, MP5, ect) |
The days i enjoyed firing modern weapons are gone; Military service and guerrila warfare was just about enough for me. I actually try to forget it now.
I guess that what motivates me to collect is a cocktail of abstract fantasy from youth ( the only then available American culture influence, westerns and so ), curiosity for mechanisms and the charm of antiquity. No pleasure in shooting any more. I take it that this Forum is for antique stuff, rather than active specimens; for the late i'm not to be counted in. Fernando |
I have an eclectic firearms collection including a 1/3 model of one of Nelson's 24 pdrs, a copy of the Loshult Gun two doppelhackens that I will write up at some point, and two wall guns. I also have a variety of post 1900 pistols and rifles. I have a weakness for Lugers. I will restrict my posts to the stuff from <1600.
I have a couple of models of Mons Meg and a really long and tedious story about an 1850's photography exhibition that featured a photo of a model of Mons Meg and where that self-same model is today. :D |
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Outstanding example of the Martini-Henry!! and actually one of my favorites as far as vintage military rifles.These can still be found at reasonable prices (beware of growing number of these of questionable integrity exiting Afghanistan from what I have heard). There is most definitely a place where antique firearms can be discussed....right here! no need for a subforum as this forum is intended to provide a place for comprehensive general discussion of arms and armour from early to end of the 19th century, sorry Chevalier :) The 'modern' firearms, while exciting to shooting enthusiasts ,are better discussed in a more specialized medium not focused on historical weapons. As Fernando has noted, modern firearms sometimes present a decidedly different connotation, one that many of us choose to not recall, and prefer to focus on the historical examples. Fearn, excellent reference to the Trabuco Canyon story! Thank you! I always thought 'Trabuco Canyon' had a most romantic ring to it, and here is a good example of the contrast between antique and modern.....imagine if a more familiar weapon was lost and we named it "12 Guage Canyon" :) Just not the same. |
Hello Fernando,
You have a Spanish Miguelete Lock percussion "escopeta catalana". Probably a flintlock converted to percussion in or around 1830. Best Manuel Luis Quote:
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I just mean that I will stick to my early firearms.
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Fernando, would be it short enough to call it "trabuco naranjero"?
Regards Gonzalo |
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If you've a fondness for the romanticized American West, you might take a look at the Single Action Shooting Society (http://www.blackjackmcginnis.com/sas...2008/index.htm), founded about twenty years ago by a bunch of rich old gun nuts who were bored with modern arms competitions. The competitions are done in period costume using single-action revolvers, lever action rifles and side-by-side shotguns. Your persona can be anyone real or imaginary from the Old West to Western cinema, so long as someone else hasn't registered it. The big meets might see Wyatt Earp competing against Tom Mix, while Dangerous Dan McGee is facing off against The Loan Arranger. Thery've gone international; I know there's chapters in Australia and Canada, who knows where else by now? BTW, my own handle is Lew Nassad, agent of the Sam Hane Occult Detective Agency. :D |
Not True Martini Henry
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But thanks for the link; it was kind of you. I find the name "Loan Arranger" fantastic, though. Fernando |
What Is It?
This gun looks Spanish in design, but I am confused by the percussion hammer & scent bottle type drum. The main spring on the exterior of the lock suggests along with the overall design a much earlier firearm?!
Regards, Keith. |
Welcome to the forum Keith.
Concerning your remarks, have you taken the previous posts describing this weapon in consideration ... origin, age and all? |
Hola Fernando
Me parece que es una adaptación de un fusil militar: de allí el calibre (.75) y las fornituras; también las marcas del Banco de Pruebas, GP y V coronadas, aunque carece del punzón de la Torre y del punzón de propiedad real. No he tenido en mis manos el cañón, pero me parece que se ha soldado el "masacote" para atornillar la chimenea (niple), o sea que el cañón era originariamente de chispa. Tal vez sea un fusil construído para la Compañia de Indias. Afectuosamente. Fernando K Hello Fernando I think it's an adaptation of a military rifle: hence the caliber (.75) and the trimmings; also the proof marks, GP and crowned V, although it lacks the punch of the Tower and the punch of royal property. I have not had my hands on the gun, but i think that the "masacote" has been welded to screw the chimney (nipple), meaning that the barrel was originally for a flintlock. Maybe it's a rifle built for the East India Company. Affectionately. Fernando K |
Can you define "masacote", Fernando?
Que significa el termo "masacote" ? |
That's an interesting firearm Fernando, and I do think we can share place for historic firearms as well. I think the word you used, "patilha", origintes in old Arabic, because "fitil" means actually cord fuse or cord match, so the phrase "Abu-fitil" meaned matchlock gun, later any long gun.
Shotguns played a major role with the defence of hebrew settlements during the pre-state phase, 1880-1948, mostly long side-by-side either Belgian or British, and after 1918 onwards the "Abu-hamsa" (arabic for "Father of five") took also place in the scene; You know it as FN-Browning semi-auto with 5 cartridges. |
Hola, Fernando
"Masacote" es el término que se aplica al trozo de metal que se usa para la conversión de un cañón (barrel) de chispa (flint) a percusión. Se siguieron dos métodos, tradicionalmente: la soldadura a base de cobre, en el lugar del oído o el agrandado y roscado de este, y la introducción por roscado de la pieza. Por supuesto que la pieza tiene un canal para permitir el paso del fogonazo producido por la ceba fulminante y una perforación mas grande y roscada para permitir el roscado de la chimenea (niple). "Masacote" viene de "masa". En los cañones originarios de percusión, el masacote está forjado, y forma parte de la parte final (breech). Afectuosamente (y pese a la traducción) Fernando K Hello, Fernando "Masacote" is the term applied to the piece of metal used for the conversion of a barrel from flint to percussion. Two methods were followed, traditionally, the copper soldering in place of the fire hole or its enlargibng and threading, for the introduction of the piece. Of course, the piece has a channel to allow passage of the priming spark produced by lightning and a larger and threaded hole to allow the placxement of the nipple. "Masacote" comes from "mass". In the barrels originating from percussion, the masacote is forged, and is part of the breech. Affectionately (and despite the translation) Fernando K . |
Hola a todos:
Fernando usó el término "Patilha" que es la traducción del español "patilla". Patilla es el diminutivo de "Pata" y se refiere al apéndice que tiene el gatillo (pié de gato") y que monta sobre los "calzos". Patilla también es la parte del pelo que está delante de la oreja, y que tiene esa forma Hello all, Fernando used the term "Patilha" which is the Spanish translation of "patilla"". Patilla is the diminutive of "Pata" (hoof) and refers to the appendix that the trigger has (cat foot), that mounts on the "calzos" (sears) . Patilla is also part of the hair in front of the ear, which has that form. . |
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I DON'T PERSONALLY COLLECT FIREARMS BUT MY FAVORITE OF THE OLD REVOLVERS IS THE LE MAT REVOLVER. IT WAS INVENTED BY DR. LEMAT IN NEW ORLEANS IN 1856 AND WAS MADE IN FRANCE FOR THE CONFEDERATE ARMY DURING THE CIVIL WAR. LARGE SCALE MANUFACTURING WAS NOT AVAILABLE IN THE SOUTH AND NOT TOO MANY MADE IT THRU FROM FRANCE DUE TO THE UNION BLOCKADES.
THE ORIGINAL REVOLVERS WERE BLACK POWDER CAP AND BALL AND HAD A 9 SHOT CYLINDER IN 42 CAL WITH A SMOOTH BORE BARREL IN 16 GAUGE USED TO SHOOT BUCK SHOT. THIS FEATURE LED TO THE NAME GRAPESHOT REVOLVER, A SWITCH ON THE HAMMER ALLOWED ONE TO SWITCH FROM THE CYLINDER TO THE SHOTGUN BARREL AND BACK. IT WAS IN ITS ORIGINAL PRODUCTION FROM 1861 TO 1865 BUT OTHER PRODUCTION HAS OCCURED SINCE IN PIN FIRE AND CENTER FIRE MODELS IN DIFFERENT CALIBER. SEE THE PICTURES ONE SHOWING THE SWITCH LEVER IN THE DOWN POSITION TO FIRE THE SHOTGUN BARREL. I GREW UP WITH GUNS AND USED THEM A LOT SO THEY ARE KIND OF LIKE TOOLS TO ME AND I DO HAVE A TOOL BOX WITH WHAT I NEED FOR VARIOUS JOBS. I LIKE TO LOOK AT THE OLD GUNS BUT LUCKY FOR ME IT IS ONE OF THE FEW THINGS I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO RESIST COLLECTING. :D THIS GUN IS FAIRLY RECENT BY ASIAN OR EUROPEAN STANDARDS BUT AMERICA IS STILL A YOUNGSTER. ;) |
Masacote
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Hi Fernando K,
Thanks for explaining the meaning of the term. In fact i was more or less familiarized with the conversion systems, but have never heard the term Masacote. The term i knew in Spanish (Castillian) for the conversion piece (breech) was Culatin. . |
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Hi Broadaxe,
Thsnks for your input :) . Quote:
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I can go as far as knowing that patilha comes from the Castillian patilla; for the moment i fail to confirm if it originaly comes from old Arabic. But i can tell you that, for the case, and as reminded by Fernando K in his post #30, patilha/patilla is the toe in the front foot of the hammer that holds it in half and full cock positions. Allegedly the name of this part comes from its resemblance with sideburns. . |
Hi Barry,
What a fine specimen you have selected to illustrate your impressions on old guns. The LeMat revolver shure deserves its inscription in the walk of fame. |
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Hi Fernando!!! That is a very interesting piece. To me, the miquelet percussion lock does not look converted from flint. The cut outs on the breech of the barrel as well as the bolster for the nipple look familiar as an early percussion system. If this is the case, this would probably date this gun to about 1840 or later. The swell at the muzzle was likely done for ease in loading. And the Catalan style but stock really adds to the attractiveness of this gun. As you mentioned, this gun looks like a perfect example of a short, personal protection weapon from the period. The markings on this gun are also attractive.
As for myself, my main interest is in firearms. Especially Ethnographic firearms and some European. I collect, and even shoot selected originals from my collection. Only have a few edge weapons. I do hope this forum continues with Firearms postings. I have found there are very few interested in the Ethnographic firearms. Most of the guys are interested in the swords and armour. I have found the Viking Sword Web-Site to be fun and educational - and very addictive!! :) Stuart: I sure do wish that Omani decorated Martini would grow legs and come running to mt house :D Since we are on the European Forum, a couple of Spanish guns from my collection. Believe I've posted these before. Thanks again to everyone for your help over the many months. Rick. |
Thank you Rick,
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