RARE BORNEO SWORD IS IT AN PARANG NIABOR ???
 

Rare Mandau ???

That's a quite unique Iban parang.
I agree that the closest classification is a Parang Niabor.
But how old do you estimate it to be?

Michael

Hi Michael 1800 or earlyer very big blade

Ben

that's a nice one, reminds me of my slightly more modern parang langgai tinggang

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...ew/Dyak004.jpg

That's a MONSTER Benny. Other than the oversized blade(and even the shape of that fits), all other features seem to indicate a parang niabor.

Must have taken a big man to handle that one.

It's also interesting with the rectangular kundieng as well as the multi-influence from other swords and tribes.
Like the Pakayun resembling brass ferrule (Murut) as well as the more Pandat resembling brass work at the back of the blade (Land Dayak).
Could you please add some more pictures of the motifs on the scabbard as well as the carvings on the hilt?

Michael

Hi Michael when I am back from my vacation I will post them


Ben

was there too....
 

Hi Ben,

according to what I found it should be a " Ajananpka" parang permaaki made by the grand-grand father from Singkoem. The iron he used he took it from the former Demang from Semitau ( or Semitan) (the handwriting isnt very clear). According to the old dayak are many heads captured with this piece.When it came in to the museum ( and that handwriting is already very old) its was already 100 years old according to the writer.
Its not quite clear who the writer is but we think that its one of the fathers from the former mission museum in Tilburg.
strange enough this is almost the only sword in their collection with such a detailed description.

If the place name is indeed Semitau ( sometimes shortened up with "Smitau")
Its somewhere in the area of the Kapoeas river about 40 kilometers south from the Sarawak border in Dutch Borneo ( de westerafdeeling)
Its very close near the Kantoek and Batang Loepar tribes.

Arjan.

Hi Arjan I was looking for facts not story s off this sword .
That I did already know.


Ben

dear Ben,

thanks for your kind answer but this is a forum so I thought it may be interesting info for other readers also..............

Arjan.

Time travel machine ?
 

Ben,

Are you making any progress with your time travel machine :p :p :p

I am living in the year 2007. If the mandau is from before 1800's all we will have are stories or assumptions. :rolleyes:

Even if another collector would have an almost identical sword of approximate age his information on that sword would either be stories or assumptions.

Thanks Arjan for sharing this info and thanks Ben for sharing the pictures of this rare parang.
For me there is a big difference of "stories" and notes from when and where it was collected and brought to the museum.
It's a pity that so many interesting collections are hidden in the museum depots and that they don't at least invest in picture databases when they don't have room to exhibit their collections.

Michael

Speculations and story s that not can be proven are always difficult because some one gets an wrong idee about something .

You forgot to tell that this is from an weapon collector that give s his collection to the museum not the missionares did collect this weapon.
all marked with this label is from his collection .
this is an important note .

Ben

You made a mistake, the sword is not from the collection of Beijens.
Its indeed collected by the missionares ,also the curator assured me and the tag proves that it comes from the collection of Tilburg.see also the pic of the tag.
The collection of Nijmegen is mainly built up by two large collections 1: the collection of Beiijens 2: the collection of the missionaries of Tilburg.In Tilburg there was a missionmuseum that donated their collection to Nijmegen after closing.
I was suprised finding in the museumcollection so many north Borneo swords
like nyabor and pandat etc. but after a short study I found out that they had a mission post in a village near Smitau.They where quite active just south near the border of Sarawak. Also they made travels to Batang Lupar village

I don't want to speculate , the reader may decide what to believe but sometimes stories also are important and belongs to the facts of a certain object.

I will copy the cart for you Arjan I will be in the depot In 2 weeks again


Ben

Ok Ben but I don't think if the tag on the sword clearly shows " Tilburg" and the description with drawings shows the swords collected by the mission and the collectionnumber doesn't look like a " Beijens number" (they mostly begin with 43......) you can convince me with a card that its not from Tilburg.
Also I don't think curators exchange tags from sword for fun......

regards,

Arjan.

I was only telling it came from an sword collector never say it was from the beijens collection.

Good reading is always good to make no mistakes Arjan. :D :D :D

Ben

Indeed Ben,I'm glad you finally noticed....l. :p

you telling me I made an mistake I never write it is fom the Beijens collection
read arjan please it would be better for us all



Ben

can you than please give me a name of that " other" collector?
that would made the discussion some clearer.

Arjan.

Read Arjan please read


Ben

does that mean " yes I have also to read it first" ? or "yes I have read it but forgot whats on it?"

Arjan.

If you don t now

I explain it was given by an collector
to the people in Tilburg not collected by themselves .
I will see in 2 weeks if they have an name on it.

I hope you understand now .

That is why I say read good
Maybe also when you was there in the museum and you didn t read good what they tell about the sword .

Ben

Ok that at least explains something.
But if you are there please ask the curator for that little booklet what I found there. its a description of many items from Tilburg also the swords.
In it there are schetches and descriptions.note that the collection numbers are the old ones. sadly they don't know who has written it but seen to the many items in it the curator has the idea that its from the fathers from Tilburg. there are also some other descriptions about other swords.
I have made pics about the sword pages if you want I can mail them.

Arjan.

Hi Arjan that is what I mean with read I told it and you don t notice it .

The conservator Fer live s nextdoor to my Friend so no problem
for me asking anything .
I already spend much hours there .

And all pics can be find in the data base off the Museum

Ben

ps did you notice there that they only have one type brass shield off the Atjeh

Its also no problem for me to get there however its a quite long travel for me.
Fer invited me to come again what I surely will do, one day is a little short.

I didn't pay much attention to the Aceh shields however there are some nice dayak shields there....

pics are indeed in the database but I always prefer to make my own pics.
So I can pic out any detail separate while museum pics are mainly one total shot, sometimes with the blade in the scabbard.

see forward to recieve the name of the father who collected those swords :D :D :D

You can t read Arjan

Ben

Hi Ben,

I think your coming close to getting personal.
This is a forum an we should talk about swords ,our common interest.
It should be nice if we let eachother free in our interpretations.
The level of this forum ( and certainly the Dayak related threads) should be of a higher level if none of the parties would act like they are alwise...
Sometimes we could learn from eachother and I think that was also why this site has once started.

Arjan.

I think you don t think right some people wanna push what they think not what is reality .

And it seem you on this way .


Ben

I am warming up my banning stick
 

We have at least a three-way pissing match going on here. Stop. Now.

The next offense will earn the offender a permanent ban. Everyone remains ON TOPIC and CIVIL, or they get banned. No debate, no discussion, no second chance.

Frankly, I have lost all patience with this kind of childish squabbling crap, from anyone in any context.

Mark
Vikingsword Staff

reality of thsi specific Niabor
 

Dear Ben,

I would love to learn about the reality of this sword.
Please don't forget to share it with forum as soon as you find out the exact origin and history of the sword.

Best regards,
Willem

Hi Willem I leave it like it is if you like to now just visit
the depot off the museum everyone is welcome there
and you find out how it did get in the hands off the Tilburgs museum .

I did say enough about this subject.

regards,
Ben

Well, after mediating this discussion in PMs i don't really wish to stir the pot...However, it seems to me that part of the problem here Ben is that you haven't really said enough. You have dismissed the claims of others here, but you have not presented any real evidence to back that up even though you promised us some. And now that you guys have got me actually interested in this thread i would really like to know more. :)
Unfortunately getting to the Tilburg Museum is not an option for the vast majority on this forum. Even though it has mainly been you, Willem and Arjan going tit for tat on this thread there are a whole lot of non-Dutch members who just don't have very easy access to Dutch museums. Your help cooperation here would be greatly appreciated here Ben. :)

Hi David ok I will go next week and try to get what I need to prove that this sword was an gift to the museum .

The Sword is not in the Tilburg museum It is in the depot
from Nijmegen Museum that was an part off the University from Nijmegen.
The fathers off Tilburg give the collection that they had to Nijmegen .

http://www.socsci.kun.nl/maw/antropologie/museum/

Het Nijmeegs Volkenkundig Museum, dat zich bevindt op het terrein van de universiteit, herbergt in haar depots diverse collecties etnografica. Behalve haar eigen collectie beheert het museum de Beijens Collectie van de gemeente Nijmegen, de collectie van het voormalig Volkenkundig Missie Museum Tilburg en de collecties van de missie orden der Paters Capucijnen, Augustijnen en Jezuïeten.

Beijens also an collector

Above in Dutch the Collection from the Missie Museum and
the paters Capucijnen Augustijnen en Jezuieten .

But not only the paters did bring stuf in also other people that collect stuf weapons and other things .
it is 6 collections .
Museum Nijmegen Collection
Beijens Collection

Missie Museum collection
Paters Capucijnen
Augustijnen
Jezuieten

(Bill Marsh can translate Dutch better to English than me) :D

Link to the museum database

http://www.svcn.nl/collectie.asp

we have to be always carefull about what we think or what might be true .



Ben

Een gedeelte van de collectie dat in bruikleen was gegeven, ging terug naar de eigenaars (met name kwam veel terecht in het Karmelietenklooster Elzendaal - nu conferentieoord - te Boxmeer), de resterende paar duizend voorwerpen kregen als nieuwe bestemming de universiteit van Nijmegen. De in 1991 in het leven geroepen Stichting Volkenkundig Museum heeft toen deze objecten voor tien jaar in bruikleen afgestaan (en dit loopt nog steeds). Op haar beurt rekent de universiteit hiervoor geen opslagkosten. Bij tijd en wijle wordt een keuze eruit tentoongesteld in het museum van de universiteit. Wellicht dat in de toekomst het geplande Stadsmuseum van Tilburg hier ook gebruik van zal kunnen maken (en zo wordt een cirkel rond).
Het archief van het Nederlands(ch) Volkenkundig (Missie)Museum bevindt zich sinds 1995 in het Gemeentearchief Tilburg, het huidige Regionaal Historisch Centrum Tilburg.


I found out that the museum did have stuff from people that was show in the museum the above in Dutch proof this
so not only what the paters collected was seen in the museum


Door ziekte van conservator pater Wittenburg werden er na het vertrek uit de voormalige intendantswoning in 1963 twee jaar lang geen tentoonstellingen meer gehouden. De nieuwe conservator werd pater drs. Gérard Pubben, lid van de congregatie van de paters van de Heilige Geest te Gemert en ex-missionaris in Angola. Sinds 1959 was hij conservator van het Afrika-museum in Berg en Dal. Onder deze nieuwe conservator werd de voormalige wollenstoffenfabriek van de textielfirma Sträter aan de Kloosterstraat nr. 24 in gebruik genomen. Het museum werd heropend op zaterdag 19 maart 1966 door mgr. Alfrink, die het volgende hierbij uitsprak: "… het missiemuseum is geen rariteitenkabinet, het heeft onder meer tot doel een cultureel-historische bestudering van de bevolking in de missiegebieden te maken. De kennis die hieruit wordt geput, staat weer ten dienste van de Kerk ter ondersteuning, om op een juiste manier te kunnen functioneren."
Begin 1969 werd de officiële benaming: Nederlands Volkenkundig Museum, zodat de connotatie met de zieltjeswinnerij uit het rijke roomse leven verdween. Pater Pubben nam in maart 1969 afscheid met de tentoonstelling 'Dorp aan de Ramu rivier', die de Papoea's tot onderwerp had. Vanaf 1 februari 1970 vervulde mej. drs. Nettie van Pesch de rol van conservator. Zij streefde meer contacten na met andere musea, en tevens een uitbreiding van de educatieve mogelijkheden, zonder er een scholenmuseum van te willen maken.

Ook in de Kloosterstraat bleef het behelpen, ondanks de grotere ruimte, maar vanwege geluidsoverlast en vocht was die verre van geschikt om de musea (ook het Natuurhistorisch Museum was meeverhuisd) optimaal te kunnen huisvesten. Voorzitter C. Lagerberg van het bestuur sprak bij de opening van de nieuwe tentoonstelling 'Latijns-Amerika, volkskunst uit heden en verleden' (1978):
"Dit is niet de behuizing waarvan we gedroomd hebben en die door de gemeente is toegezegd. Ik verwerp de opstelling van de gemeente tegenover ons huisvestingsprobleem. (…) Op de zolders van het zusterklooster aan de Oude Dijk ligt een grote hoeveelheid materiaal opgeslagen. We kunnen dit echter niet in onze tentoonstellingsruimte kwijt. Daarom is het nu ook zinloos nieuwe verzamelingen aan te trekken."
En de collectie was in de loop der jaren aanzienlijk uitgebreid. Het Museum had vele etnografische voorwerpen verworven, met name uit China, Japan, Indonesië, Filipijnen, Nieuw-Guinea, West- en Centraal-Afrika en voorcolumbisch Midden- en Zuid-Amerika

The second part proofs that the museum in 1969 starting to get an museum without the influence off the church



Het archief van het Nederlands(ch) Volkenkundig (Missie)Museum bevindt zich sinds 1995 in het Gemeentearchief Tilburg, het huidige Regionaal Historisch Centrum Tilburg.
Met dank aan de heer ir. G.W. van Logtestijn.

This one is that the everything about collection what is written can be found in Tilburg and not in Nijmegen .


Hope that this is setting right what I did say about it


Regards Ben

Hi Ben,

I really like it that you listed such info as shown here ,thanks for that.
But I don't think our english readers can do a lot with it.
For me there are also questions rising, course the curator Fer told me that when the collection of Tilburg came to Nijmegen they also got the library from the fathers ( see Fers enormous book collection) and of course I think you must also have seen the archieves that are certainly in the depot in Nijmegen,but when theres more info to get in Tilburg I will surely visted that.
It should be nice to find the descriptions back from the old numbers.
the reason for it you can read below.

realized also that the " collection of Nijmegen" was mainly the collection of Beijens who donated thousands of object to the city.


I also didn't say that the stuff the museum in Tilburg got was only field collected by the fathers.
On the other way read at least the book " De Dajaks by Maxandrea" the book is written by the fathers ( capucijners). Highly rare indeed but it explains at least something why I wrote about the missionposts in that part of Borneo.
In that book you will find the places ,missionposts ,that are comparing with the names of the places in other booklet I found into the depot itself with all drawings.below one of that pages.clearly it shows the sword we are discussing here.the number is old now it has another number.
The other scetches are also matching with the other swords and sometimes even the name of the places where they are collected are given.
I will also visit Nijmegen again course I want to know more about the other collector Beijens and the swords he collected (not this one)
It should be nice to combine the history about the collectors with there swords.( facts only ;) I have the idea that the collection can be seen more into the historical perspective that it is now.for now it are mostly " just Borneo swords" laying there for 100 years with now and then some interested collection who pays attention.

Arjan.

Thanks Ben for your response, but as Arjan points out, all this Dutch and links to websites in Dutch isn't much good to most of us here. And whether the info is in Tilburg or the depot, it matters not because both locations are equally as impossible for me to access right now. But i do appreciate the effort. :)

Arjan you wrote here that it was collected by an missionaris

Show me the line in that little book where it thells you that this piece was collected by an missionaris .

Would be nice to see it thanks for the pic off the book .

And I never say it is not from the Tiburg museum .

It was not collected by an missionaris that is what I say I found no proof of that it was collected by one off them .

And you did not show me yet it was collected by an missionaris .

And fer did not get everything just ask him there is just a little that he did get .


In 1931 nam de gemeente deel aan de oprichting van een Volkenkundig museum en een Natuurhistorisch museum. Burgemeester en wethouders deelden de gemeenteraad toen mede dat ´noch voor een algemeen oudheidkundig museum, noch voor een textielmuseum met annex oudheidkamer, noch voor een museum van moderne Noordbrabantsche schilderkunst zoodanige vooruitzichten aanwezig (werden) geacht, dat reeds op korte termijn een belangrijk project zou kunnen verwezenlijkt worden.´(12) Op de zolder van het op 27 april 1936 in gebruik genomen ´Nederlandsch Volkenkundig Missiemuseum´ aan de Paleisstraat, werd de door aankoop en vooral door schenking steeds uitgebreide ´verzameling van oude voorwerpen en schilderijen´ opgeslagen in afwachting van het historisch museum. In hetzelfde gebouw was sinds 1935 ook het Natuurhistorisch Museum gehuisvest. In 1954 werd de kleine verzameling overgebracht naar de tweede etage van de afdeling bevolking van de gemeente aan de Markt. In de loop der jaren is de collectie stukje bij beetje toevertrouwd aan de gemeentearchivaris, onder wiens hoede deze nog steeds berust. Alleen de objecten op textielgebied zijn in de jaren vijftig en later overgebracht naar het Nederlands Textielmuseum.


it is overhere that they tell that they get a lot off gifts and some one from the city make s note s from what is coming in by gifts .

Is there an name in the litle book that would be explain a lot because it don t have to be written by an missionaris .

Would be nice to now it .

And If you go next week we can met there just email me when you there .
regards
Ben

Hi Ben,

However I still think its collected by the missionaries , indeed it's possible that someone else brougth it in.Maybe I was indeed to early with my conclusion.But that doesn't take away that the description from the sword is that good and someone must have mentioned that (when the sword cames in probably.) Indeed there no evidence that the booklet is written by a missionary, but that's also no very important.
The book shows clearly to be a kind of intake booklet from the Tilburg collection. Strange however that we don't know the writer.I'm very glad that you have listed the info above.I will surely go to Tilburg now and see what I can find there. Also the fact that my boss and I have agreed to split up give me the opotunity to invest more time in it in the future...

Its remarkable that so many descriptions of museum collections are bad , incomplete or get lost.It takes sadly enourmous lots of time to dig up the info we want.I'm also afraid that in the case of Nijmegen the time is 23.59 course maybe the collection will be split up in 2010.And seen to the fact that every movement of collection stuff and info get lost I think we are right on time here. (the archive study will take a lot of time).

Hi Ben I will surely contact you when I will go there...

regards,

Arjan.

Oke Arjan that sounds great .

Did you also noticed that we have more knowledge about the Indonesian weapons than the conservator himself .

The best would be for this collection when it do get to an museum who don t put it in an depot but would be show it to the people .

I am working on that subject and will try to see if Nijmegen
have an idee by put it in the right place , I think I have one for them but still working on it .

Regards Ben