Pics: Snake-like Curves
 

Hi All,
Forgive me, I disturb you again and again, with pictures. What I can share with you is only in pictures. Only pictures, and just only collection. Thank you.. The second snake-like curves spear, supposed to be Pengging style luk. Pengging is a period before the beginning of Mataram period... The style of swimming snake?

Ganjawulung

Nice, I've seen Pengging examples from Hidayat's collection, (in pictures only) :p. On a personal level, although these might look intimidating, I find these blades and spear points to be ineffective as weapons. Perhaps mostly used as ceremonial? :confused:

dear Ganja
Why disturb? Is a pleasure for eyes and mind! :)

Hi friends.... :)

Just want to join, here I posted another keris with luk which called "Rengkol" as Gonjowulungs spears.

And I think the keris with luk still can be used for weapon. In my mind, the keris with luk more suitable for weapon because it can make wider rip on body/skin when it used to stuck. That because from first luk at the point to bottom side made more wider. When we stuck the keris to the body, every luk will make wider rip on the skin.

Different with straight keris which has simple form. But stright keris more focus to the target and make a dirrect stab. In the other hand, the keris with luk look stronger/rubbery because it has luk which seems like a spring when we used to stuck. I think it shown that the mPu on past period had thought about weapon structures, strength, and capabilities, etc... ;)

Thats just my opinion ;)

Hi, I'm speaking specifically to Pengging style of luks (luk Rengkol / Sarpa Nyander) which is exaggerated.

Technically, with its slender profile, I doubt it makes an effective weapon.
In a one-on-one encounter, an opponent could possibly deflect an attack quite effectively, with capability to disarm the keris wielder, with a piece of cloth/clothing.

When facing multiple opponents, this type of blade tends to get stuck when stabbed. Retraction might be slower, worse if it get stuck in between the victim's ribs. If targeted at the lower abdomen area, it might not penetrate the opponent's 'ikat pinggang' or the blade might 'buckle' due to its 'fragile' looking nature.

It might be more for aesthetics reasons rather than practicality, imho. :)

My question: Where lies the strength of these Pengging-specific luk blades? :confused:

Hii Ganja (Pak Jimmy),
Yes correct!! that you were disturbing me again and again, as you have some Rare & Nice Pengging Tumbaks, but you just show them to me. You never allow me to offer some "mahar" on even only one of them. He..he..he.

Sometime it becomes an addictive being "disturbed" by such this.

Thank you Ganja,

Alengka's Prince

Dear Shahrial,
What I learned from Javanese tangguh, is mainly "style that differ from other period". So it was a matter of identity. That is the most important. From the style of weapon, and of course the specific style of sheath, one can differ where did the pusaka's holder from... (IMO, and no "direct source")

To learn tangguh, is not a study of just reading. But also seeing, looking, watching carefully thousands of blades with different styles. After "jam terbang" (Oops, flying hours? Help my English, please...) advanced, then you may be able to know -- or at least to predict -- from with style.

Pengging, very special in luks. Thin like Majapahit style, but good iron, good "garap" (working), although only for short period... (I will add more, soon)

Ganjawulung

Thank you for your input. ;)

I do not learn tangguh or claim to learn. I'm just pointing out the stylistic differences compared with pieces from other period. Those that I've seen had been identified by those whom are familiar with tangguh. So I'm not guessing, in that sense.

Hi Ganja, I agree Pengging does have special luk form... that part I've seen from Hidayat's pieces. It may have whatever you've said, but how does it fare physically?

My earlier comment is just my personal observation and opinion.
My opinion still stands, unless it could be persuaded otherwise. :)

Dear Shahrial (part 2),
I like to have a keris from "short period" tangguh, like from Kesultanan Pajang (1551-1582) and of course from Pengging period (after Kesultanan Demak 1480-1550) and before 1582 Mataram Period. Usually, the short period has a very specific type. Like Pajang, has a special type in the base of two sogokan. (I can't say it with word. One must see the blade).

Pengging, has a "luk rengkol" with good iron, and slim model. The first spear in the picture above, is very strong. (With a "gigir sapi" or say it, back bone in the middle of the blade), strong enough to stab somebody. The Pengging style (picture 2), is also strong although it looks slim (but not to thin, with good iron).

Are those spears only for ceremonial purpose? I don't know. But in my opinion, the slim blade is quite strong to stab somebody... You will try?

Ganjawulung

Thank you Marco,

Knowledge on keris is not only reading or making the new keris and sell it to other person with certain good price, but also seeing as many kerises possible. Keris is like the book itself. We can not learn tangguh (style, based on the period the making of the keris) from just reading books. You must see the details with your own eyes...

Oh, no... Not allowed to an Alengka's Prince. This Pengging spear belongs to Ayodhya's Prince.. (Just kidding). Your're welcome to see my new collection next week. That's what I have. Just collection... And I will disturb you again and again with pictures...

Ganjawulung

The short period is probably the reason why there isn't enough time to create more styles... Maybe, if it's not too much to ask, could you share with us, in pictures, maybe we can learn something. ;)

Maybe you could ship it over and I'll try stabbing myself with it. If you don't hear from me, hmmm... I might be gone, otherwise, your blade might be damaged. :D ;)

Ha, ha, ha, but I wouldn't ship it to you...

Just kidding ya... don't take it to heart, ok. ;) I prefer constructive opinions... You have very nice pieces. The 'Pengging' pieces are not many and hard to come by (real ones that is).

I do welcome more info on 'Pengging' period pieces.

Tangguh Pajajaran
 

Dear Shahrial and All,

These pictures below, showing spear point of tangguh Pajajaran (The Hindhu Kingdom, the ancestor of Islamic Kingdom of Cirebon). It wears dhapur (people called it) "kuntul ngantuk" (sleepy bird, a kind of paddy field bird with long beak). Tangguh Pajajaran, usually has a good iron, good pamor (Pajajaran Kingdom has good relation -- if I'm not mistaken -- with Portuguese). But not Pajajaran awal (in the beginning of Pajajaran), which usually not quite good iron. Nearly budo iron in kudi and kujang...

I don't know whether you see a "raja gundala" in this Pajajaran spear or not.. It was formerly owned by a dukun (practitioner) in Central Java. And the dhukun had died, his son sold the spear to me...

Ganjawulung

Tangguh Mataram
 

Dear Shahrial and All,

Want more? This is a very humble piece, a spear which (supposed) bears tangguh Mataram (Islam, not old Mataram Hindhu) period between 1582-1749. The dhapur is "korowelang", a kind name of lokal snake...

Ganjawulung

Wah, Mas Hidayat,
I am very very interested in the "kelengan" (black only) keris. The garap is so nice. From which tangguh, mas?

Ganjawulung

Beautiful tombak. My kind of piece... would love to see more. :D

Tangguh Cirebon
 

Dear Shahrial and All,
This piece, is from tangguh Cirebon, almost the same period of Demak. (Demak 1480-1550). Dhapur trisula. Many pusakas in Cirebon, are tombaks and kudi or kujang of Hindhu Pajajaran. This is one of the popular model of Cirebonese trisula (three points spear). They have also, dwisula (two points spear). Hope no too much. Sorry for disturbing you...

Ganjawulung

These are quite unusual and attractive forms, Ganja.

Could you oblige with a 90 degree close up of the metuk of each of your Pengging tombak, and a 90 degree close up of a section of the blade?

I would appreciate it if the metuk could be photographed without the landhean, so that the first section of the pesi can be seen.

I apologise for lodging this request with you, and hope it does not cause you too much trouble.

Dear Alan,
Hope these following pictures will answer your request. The first spear, I suppose not from tangguh Pengging, but the luks are pengging-like style. Unfortunate, the first one was waxed in the landeyan, so I could not open it. But the Pengging spear, I am showing you with pleasure in these pictures.

Ganjawulung

Thanks, Pak Ganjawulung.
Actually me my self not too sure about the tangguh of my keris :confused: .
So, would you please give me an advice. Did it the Pengging keris too ?
Here I send more pictures.
Thanks.

pengging or pakubuanan???

Dear Mr Hidayat and All,

Tangguh is not a certainty. The word itself shows, that the meaning of "nangguh" (in keris term) is "guessing the period of making, based on specific details of the keris or spear"). If I say: "My keris or spear bears tangguh Pajajaran or Pengging, or Majapahit", once must be understood to as "supposed to be made in Pajajaran period" or possibly, "supposed to have Pajajaran style,". Many kerises, supposed with certain tangguh, actually was made in the different period after.

From time to time, "knowledge" on tangguh is an oral and visual knowledge. One learns (or knows) tangguh, from seeing blades or spears. Sometimes from written opinion in the past, but really difficult to imagine the reality, without seeing examples. What I've known about tangguh, also seeing from thousands of kerises from hundreds of keris owners. Either they were keris collectors, or royal family (kerabat keraton), or at least from people which has collection of old heirlooms. You may find such source in Surakarta (Solo) or Yogyakarta.

"Nangguh duwung" (guessing the period of making the keris), is always debatable. In my experience, other people can be other opinion on tangguh. But at least, there are certain compromises in specific details, like specific luks, the shape of ganja, the shape of kembang kacang, the sogokan (pajang style, if I'm not mistaken, has a specific form of 'bawang sebungkul' -- form of sogokan base in the keris, not form of pamor --), and tangguh pengging with very specific luks usually (not certain) not more than five luks.

Some Mataram style, has rengkol luks too. (See pictures below, spears supposed to be from tangguh Mataram Senopaten, or Senopaten style at least). One decides tangguh, also from the iron of the blade. Tangguh Sedayu (actually, Sedayu is the noble name of empu Supamandrangi in Majapahit period or he wore name Empu Pitrang in Blambangan. Sedayu, very wellknown of its specific 'black' iron which is only known by seeing it.

Like Pengging, was not a period of a kingdom. Pengging was only a Kadipaten in the period of Demak Islamic Kingdom. Pengging under Ki Ageng Pengging (formerly Ki Kebo Kenanga), disobeyed the King of Demak as a result of 'different aliran of Islam' with Demak -- see 'stories' on Syech Siti Djenar -- and Pajang period, is a very short Kingdom after Demak, but just before Mataram (Sutowijoyo, or Panembahan Senopati).

From which tangguh? Let's guessing your keris, afterwards...

Ganjawulung

Actually I still waiting for your expertise regarding my keris, Pak Ganjawulung.
Raden Usman had gave his opinion (thanks), and perhaps it can be a Pengging or Pakubuwanan keris. But I'm not sure, because the ricikans form of my keris not shown the Pengging keris. I think the Greneng and Jenggot too sharp and the ada-ada also sharp too for Pengging :confused: .

k

The luk's style, is pengging style. Very wavy. But if you see the details, you will find the 'strong' characteristics of "not tangguh pengging". Details of "rong dha nunut" (often erroneously spelled as "rondo nunut") or double greneng in the keris' tail, plus the complete ricikan/details in the gandhik -- see, there are "janggut" and "jenggot" on the "sekar kacang", clearly believed to be "Empu Kasa Style" or at least Madurese style.

"Rong dha Nunut" or double greneng, means "two dha above the greneng". Dha, is the 12th character of Caraka Script (ha, na, cha, ra, ka, da, ta, sa, wa, la, pa, dha, ja, ya, nya... etc). The form of one greneng, is "dha" in Caraka script. And "nunut" is "to go with someone, for instant if someone invite you to go with his car together...) Please don't spell it as "rondo nunut" or "I go together with a widow", or "The widow is living with me...". About this, of course Mas Mans Hidayat already knows well.

Many Mataram style kerises bear the complete ricikan like "Kasa's style" or Madurese style. Look also my "Kalabendu" luk 29 in the other thread. There are also double greneng, or "rong dha nunut". It supposed, that the empu of the Kalabendu keris, was Madurese origin.

About your keris, is quite embarassing. Because, the "garap" or work of art, is very fine. With kruwingan on both side of the blade, from "sor-soran" (keris base) to the point of the keris. Like many Mataram kerises. The iron, also embarassingly good.

Overall, the "garap" quality of this keris is excellent. But, I guessed, that this is a "nom-noman" or "nem-neman" keris. Kerises which were made in the Mataram era (1582-1789) and after -- until now, usually called as "keris nem-neman". Please, correct me if I'm mistaken, Mr Hidayat...

Ganjawulung

dear Gonjo,

the borderline between nem-neman and sepuh may be vary. to people who favor majapahit will consider keris made afterwards as nem-neman. to people who favor mataram will consider mataram kerises as tangguh sepuh.

to me, if and only if, the date of keris made is younger than my birthday will be considered as nem-neman. it relates to my dream. instead of as part of history, I want to watch keris as a part of art which is still being developped by society. Whenever keris becomes a part of history, so does javanese.

anyway, in discussion, I will follow the borderline (nem-neman v. sepuh)accepted by most discussants, "ngeluk practice".

Many thing always debatable in this keris world. Here yes, and There no. It is no wonder. Like Yogyakarta and Surakarta for instant, in the neighbouring city but "opposing each other" in the past, often found contradictory. In Wayang play, Arjuna played by women dancer in Solo, but by men in Yogya. Modern kerises developped very quick and advanced in Solo, but very very slow in Yogya. And in many cultural aspects, you'll see contradictories between Yogya and Solo. It is quite dikotomic. Although only 64 km apart...

Ganjawulung

Thanks very much for those pics, Ganja.

Sorry it took me a few days to get back to this thread. I was involved in sporting competition over the weekend.

Pengging is a problematical tangguh. I've seen a number of keris that have been identified as Pengging by people whose opinion I must respect, but never two keris the same. The concensus of opinion seems to indicate that what I show below are the dominant characteristics of tangguh Pengging, but getting two knowledgeable people to agree that a particular keris is Pengging seems to be asking for a lot.

Characteristics of a keris of tangguh Pengging:

Tanting:- light

Besi:- fine grained and dense

Pamor:- a rough distinct grain that sometimes runs across the blade rather than parrallel with the edges

Baja:- middle quality, correctly forged and heat-treated.

Pawakan:- the cross section is like rotan; some keris have kruwingan; the wanda (sorry, I cannot give an adequate English word) is a haunted feeling.

Gonjo:-sirah cecak very finely pointed, but sometimes rounded, gulu meled is very long, cross section of gonjo is rounded

Gandhik:- large, well proportioned, but rather short.

Blumbangan:- boto rubuh (fallen brick), deep and wide

Sogokan:- wide, deep, round bottomed and sides undercut

Ada-ada:- small and not to a sharp ridge

Kruwingan:- deep and continuing to the point (where kruwingan exists)

Luk:- very deep , steep curves; these curves are very different to those found in all other keris.

Wadidang:- a long deep curve that starts suddenly.

The three most respected ahli keris whom I have known during my life were all in agreement that these are the characteristics of a Pengging keris, however, getting universal agreement from them that a specific blade was Pengging was an entirely different matter.

Probably the major problem that tangguh presents is that in recent years collectors and dealers have wanted to apply it to classes of keris that it was never intended for, and the result is that now we have a very great deal of confusion.

Personally, I am extremely reluctant to be at all definite in respect of tangguh from any photographs. Even the very best, top quality studio photographs in hardcopy can be misleading, to try to play the tangguh game from internet photos is something that is simply beyond my ability. Yeah, something like an old, degraded Segaluh, I'm prepared to give a qualified opinion on, but most other classifications, I would want the bare blade in my hand before I'd be prepared to venture an opinion.You cannot feel the weight and balance from a photo, and you cannot feel the material. You cannot look at the weld joint where the pamor meets the steel core, and see what sort of welding has been done. Plus 100 other things you cannot do from a photo. As Ganjawulung has already pointed out, you need to handle thousands of blades under respected guidance before you can get a feel for tangguh, you cannot learn it from books. I don't believe it is possible to give positive tangguh opinions from photos, either.And tombak are 100 times more difficult than keris.

I have heard the joking comment in Jawa that tangguh was invented to give men something to talk about.

Which Jawa? Solo?

Segaluh?
 

Disturb you, again and again... With pictures. This supposed (yes, just suppossed) to be Segaluh style, if not the tangguh Segaluh... Please forgive me for disturbing you, again and again...

Ganjawulung

Tangguh giving men something to talk about?

Actually, I heard it first, maybe 25 or 30 years ago in Malang.At the same time I heard a lot more jokes specifically directed at Solo and Jogja people---jokes that do not bear repeating.

Then I heard it again in a different form from a good friend, who happens to be a woman, in Solo.

Pak Ganjawulung :)
Thank you for your expertise. “Nangguh” keris or to estimate where and when the keris had made is a one aspect on keris culture placed on the top rank on the keris knowledge. And I’m sure that you knew about that. Indeed that the Tangguh of keris can be analysis from many aspects. And I thought the men who has good experiences about the keris culture know well about this. Especialy men who live and interaction in the culture where the keris had made and used. To analys the keris we cannot leave the cultures, because the keris not just a thing or object. The keris is a cultural pieces too.

And was right that some aspect to analysis the tangguh can be seen on the blade style. Like luk style, panetes, greneng, gonjo, kembang kacang, wadidhang, tikel alis, trep-trepan pamor (pamor and iron blended), etc... Tantingan and tingtingan usually can be used if we're not too sure about the era (period), like the keris which made on Segaluh (Tangguh Segaluh) and keris Segaluh which made on Mataram period (Tangguh Segaluh Yasan Mataram). So, the people who has good experiences and intently to learn the keris culture (not just at keris market of course), had seen too many keris style and always well touching with the keris everyday can guessing the keris by seeing the form of the keris and ricikans without handed the keris by them self. So, from the pictures we also can guessing (nangguh) the keris, especially to know by our self. And I think this topic ever discuss on other thread.

As the cultural object and talisman, the keris gave many deep meaning like philosophy, histories and honour of cultural aspect. So, everything on the keris, especially Tangguh, not just trifling. That just my humble opinion, Pak Ganja :(

And regaring my keris which has luk rengkol, this can be a Daleman Sumenep keris which estimated about 18th century. So, as your expertice, this keris has ricikans as Sumenep Maduranese keris. And it shown to me that not just a Pengging keris which has luk rengkol. Some keris from Mataram Sultan Agung priode also has deep luk like the Pengging keris.
So, thanks a lot for your expertise :)

Pak Mans, although you were addressing Pak Ganja in your most recent post, it is obvious that at least some of my remarks were in your mind, thus, although you did not deign to address your comments to me, I have no hesitation in addressing my comments to you.

When we give an opinion on anything, we need to be able to defend that opinion.

If the opinion cannot be defended, it is merely empty words.

When we give an opinion on the tangguh of a keris, we need to be able provide a solid argument in respect of exactly why we believe the keris to be one tangguh, rather than another.As you so correctly point out, those who deal seriously and conscientiously in keris knowledge may not regard any elements of the keris in a trifling manner.

I agree with you, it is possible to guess at a tangguh from a picture of a keris.

It is even possible to guess at a tangguh when all we see is the top of the gonjo with the keris still in the wrongko.

It is possible to guess at the tangguh of a keris that previously occupied a wrongko.

It is possible to guess at the tangguh of a keris with our eyes shut, and relying only on feel.

However, it is not possible to provide a defensible opinion in respect of the tangguh of a keris, unless we handle the keris.Just as it is not possible to learn tangguh from pictures.

We should remember that a guess is not an opinion, and the meaning of "tangguh" when applied to the keris does carry the sense of "opinion", not "guess".

In private correspondence between friends, it may be quite legitimate to venture an opinion on the tangguh of a keris, based only on a photograph.

However, in a public forum I consider it irresponsible to provide opinions of tangguh which are based on only photographs.

Pak Mans, your level of keris knowledge and understanding is clearly high, as is the knowledge and understanding of Pak Ganja. However. many people who read and contribute to this forum do not have similar levels of knowledge, most especially in respect of tangguh. Providing guesses at tangguh, rather than defensible opinions can do irreparable damage to the potential of these people to learn.

I would ask you to consider this example:-

if we go to the doctor with some illness, that doctor , if he is at all competent, will use all means at his disposal to diagnose the illness before he provides an opinion on exactly what the illness is. He does this because apart from the duty of care he has to his patient, he knows that if he is wrong, and cannot defend the opinion he provided, he could face severe consequences.

If the doctor has vast experience, he may venture an opinion in respect of some illnesses upon the basis of the patient's description of the problem, and what can be seen.In some instances, this could even be done without the patient being present.

However, if a lay person, lacking medical experience observed this "arms length" diagnosis, that lay person could well come to believe that competent diagnoses could be made in all cases in the absence of the patient.


Compare this example to the practice of providing guesses at the tangguh of keris, based upon a photographic image of that keris.

I feel that it may be legitimate practice to publish a photograph of a keris which one has handled, and provide an opinion on the tangguh of that keris, together with the reasons which have helped in the formation of that opinion. This could be of value and could assist in the increase of knowledge of those who have not had the benefit of close personal experience in gaining a knowledge of tangguh.

However, I also feel that to provide "guesses" at the tangguh of a keris which has not been handled , and for which it is impossible to give a supported opinion , is at best less than wise, and at worst misleading and destructive.

What I have written above is my opinion, and as always I acknowledge that the opinions of others may vary from my own. I have no wish to impose my opinions upon the actions of other people, all I ask is that what I put forward be considered, together with the possible implications flowing from continuance of providing "guesses" at tangguh, rather than supportable opinions, and taking into account that no serious student of the keris regards anything to do with the keris in a trifling manner.

Thank you Alan. Those are some of the most sensible and reasonable words i have read on these forums in respect to tangguh.

As a very novice keris appreciator I thank you Alan for your insights into this difficult area and your very nice analogy ( I am an experienced doctor and your comments ring quite true :D ).
cheers
DrD

Alan,

enlighting!!!

Usman

Hi Pak Alan :)

Sorry if you feel that my latest posted looks like pointed to you, whereas not sure like that. Also sorry if you feel so sensitive with my opinion. I just posted some my trifling opinion. And sometimes the joke can make a misunderstanding if not at the right places we talk about.... especially if talking about the cultures, countries or another thing which have sensitive sense on forum ;)

Back to the Tangguh of a keris, it’s just like an estimation of period. As Pak Ganja said that the meaning of tangguh is guessing (although the true meaning is more than just guessing .... ). So any argument are welcome for everyone who think has experiences and need to learn about the keris. And so that some forumities also ever asked more detail pictures to give their opinion. What for ? I think to make sure about the tangguh if we talk about the tangguh of a keris, did it ? And I’m sure that you know more about this topic because you has high level experiences about the keris too ;)

So, I do apreciate with all of your expertises in this forum. And hope every forumities who want to learn the keris can get the knowledge by reading the opinion and seeing the photographs. And that is one of the purpose to posted some keris pictures on the threads, did it ? And I always hope that my english will be better and better for further in order to can give more clear opinion and know the meaning of other opinion :)


Regards,
Manshur Hidayat :)

G'day Pak Manshur,

Whether or not your previous remarks were made after taking account of what I had previously posted is not material to my position on this matter.

Similarly, I must correct you in your misunderstanding of my emotional state:- I am not in the least sensitive in respect of anything you have written.

You have made your previous posts in good faith, following a direction that to you appears to be a valid one, however, an analysis of the factors involved in providing a valid opinion on tangguh will clearly demonstrate that such an opinion cannot be formed in the absence of the physical presence of the keris.

I do understand the meaning of the word tangguh. Yes, it can be taken to mean an estimate, it can also be intended to mean an opinion. It can never mean a guess.

An estimate as applicable to the practice of tangguh can be taken to carry the meaning of an approximation based upon probabilities.

An opinion as applicable to the practice of tangguh can be taken to have a similar meaning.It could be deemed to carry the meaning of a judgement based upon grounds that are insufficient for certainty.

An opinion may be either an informed opinion, or an uninformed opinion.

An uninformed opinion is based on notions carried in one's own mind, and by nature is subjective.

An informed opinion is based on objective factors and should be able to be defended, contrary to the case with an uninformed opinion, which cannot be defended.

I am certain that you have been party to a great many discussions in respect of tangguh. What happens at these discussions? Do the participants attempt to support their opinion as to which tangguh may be applied to the keris in question, or do they simply provide an opinion with no reasons? More often than not, concensus of opinion will be reached amongst the participants in the discussion, and that concensus will be formed because of the arguments put by the participants in the discussion. Those arguments will be based on the observable characteristics of the keris.

Thus, the final concensus of opinion will be based on objective factors, it will be defensible, and as such it becomes an informed opinion.

The appraisal of a keris in order to determine tangguh is not a guess, nor is it an estimate, it is a process whereby an informed, defensible opinion is formed.

It is impossible to form such an opinion in the absence of the physical presence of the keris.

What is possible from a good photograph of a keris is to use the image as an example of some of the features which may be found in a keris of a particular tangguh.

For instance, a photograph of a keris which bore characteristics of the Mataram Sultan Agung tangguh could be published along with a question from its owner asking what tangguh was applicable.

For anybody to provide the opinion that it was a keris of Mataram Sultan Agung tangguh would be absolutely and totally irresponsible, because this opinion could not be defended.

However, it would be acceptable to provide an opinion which identified certain features of the keris and the information that these features appeared to be consistent with a tangguh of Mataram, Sultan Agung.

As an example how such an opinion could be worded:-

" this keris could possibly be tangguh Mataram, Sultan Agung:- the blumbangan is squarish, the overall blade form is consistent with this tangguh, and the ron dha is the correct form for Mataram Sultan Agung; based upon the limited information available, I believe that upon close examination, this keris could be given the tangguh of Mataram, Sultan Agung"

Do you see the difference?

It is a qualified opinion. It says "yes, there is a possibility that this Mataram SA"

It does not say "yes, this keris is Mataram SA."

It is not a defensible opinion, it is conjecture, based on limited information.

Tangguh cannot be learnt from pictures, nor can it be applied from pictures. Responsible appraisal of a keris can only be carried out with the keris in one's hand.

I can see no objection to providing qualified opinions on the tangguh of a keris, and in fact, some of the opinions that have already been supplied have been qualified, not clearly perhaps, but the qualification has been there.

But I cannot endorse an approach that sets out to give a firm opinion on a tangguh in the absence of evidence which is insufficient to support that opinion.

Put simply:- we cannot just say:-" This is tangguh such and such"--- we need to give the reasons why we think it is tangguh such and such; we must support our opinion; nobody can support a tangguh opinion based on only a photograph.

Pak Manshur, I do appreciate that you are working in a language that is not your own, and I complement you upon the way in which you handle English. However, I would ask you to bear in mind that in written communication we must make clear those things which in face to face communication are obvious. In face to face communication we can easily differentiate between a casual guess and an opinion which has taken some time and effort to form. We cannot do this as easily in written communication. Many people with only the slightest understanding of tangguh read the opinions placed in this discussion group.If they see an opinion placed by somebody who is Javanese, and who appears to know something about keris, then that opinion, for those people, could well become an absolute truth. However, any opinion formed on the basis of a photograph, in respect of tangguh , can only be regarded as a casual guess. This can be very misleading for people with a lesser understanding of tangguh than you yourself have.

Dear Alan, Mans, and All,
Of course, I must be responsible with everything I did in this forum. if I didn't mention the things what you need in this thread (the details of keris, and so on), it was mainly a matter of difficulty to communicate the idea in English, to you all. Although not only that.

I am not joking with tangguh, though I only have a short experience in "loving" the keris world. Because, for me now, tangguh is one of the most important to learn to be able to appreciate the beauty of kerises. Really. What happened if I only know dhapur, and then suddenly faced with ten kerises, all of them bearing dhapur of tilamupih (straight), but in 10 different style, different tangguh?

Actually, the same question emerged in my mind when I was reading the Tammens' book (De Kris, Magic Relic of old Indonesia) a couple of years ago. I said, hey, how come? He presented in 157 pages (from page 114 to 271) pictures (only of course) of 79 kerises, tombaks and wedung -- all with tangguh -- but no details on why he presented this as tangguh this and that...

Some of them, are not correct, although mostly "correct". One of the not correct one is: "keris majapahit" that is actually "old small keris for offering" (which often erroneously called too as 'keris pichit' in Malay). Did I think Tammens was irresponsible?

I never put my belief in reading or hearing anything from everyone -- taken for granted. I always preserve my belief, and then, proof myself which is actually the truth. By experiencing, seeing the real thing. Was Tammens' error destruct my knowledge? Of course not. Tammens is one of my respected "teacher", although only from his book. And also, from my Javanese teacher, to know the nuance behind the objective thing. Not just kerises.

Anyway, I would ask you apology if there was any mistake from me that you considered to be irresponsible and destructive. Of course that was not my intention to. What was in my mind that, this is a "warung kopi", and not an academic forum. Although, of course, I must be responsible in whatever I did in this non academic forum.

Thank you Alan, and all. I agree with you, that it is impossible to estimate accurately the tangguh, in absence the kerises...

Ganjawulung