New book: Arms and Armor from Iran
 

Just got it and just started reding. No opinion yet except that it has nice pictures and very weak binding: the book is so heavy that the binding pulled apart after 20 minutes.
Warning: read it only when it is flat on the table and do not keep it vertical!

I'm really very excited about this book! From the reviews I've read, it promises to be a definitive work.

I'll be placing my order this week. :)

I'm still trying to gather money for this book :eek: Hope to get it in next 6 months :D

Ariel: what do you mean about your warning :confused:

hi michal,
i have also heard that the book is way too heavy for the binding, hence the warning.
i dont have it yet, and have asked for opinions from people that have and no one is willing to commit themselves.
ariel - read faster!!
i have no doubt the historical side will be well written.
what about the catalogued descriptions?
we know that museums sometimes use a lot of wishful thinking when it comes to dating. does the author lift the descriptions, or use his own opinion?
the latter is what we are all after in any new publication, but the former is what we normally end up with.

Arms and Armor from Iran - a first impression
 

Dear fellow Enthusiasts!
I also received the book and worked through parts of it - it's a huge ammount of info and I'm quite busy at the moment.

First in regards to the binding:
Mine is still intact, and I didn't read it on a table as I dragged it arround with
me during a few days of business travel;
So ariel: I'd suggest that you contact the publisher. A book coming apart
after 20 minutes is totally unacceptable and I'd ask them for a replacement.
that is the least thing they should do (including postage).
If it helps you can use my statement here as a refference in any negotiation
- as my binding is still solid.

On the subject that this book was called a "definitive work", or that it is
regarded "definitive" by some of the readers:
I would call such statements "over excitement" by some individuals and it
makes me raise at least one eye brow ;)

Don't get me wrong - it truly is a book that I'm excited about - at least in
regards to chapter 7 and 10 that I've read so far (and with my
limited knowledge of persian history I'd have better started with chapter 1)
But calling something "definitive" is out of place. No academic book will
ever be definitive - labeling it as such denies the progress of mankind.

Religious and holy text are regarded as "definite" or "definitive" by their
believers, academic works can be "ground breaking", "revealing", etc. -
but never definitive.

Just my 2 euro cents.

So I'll get back to chapter 1 now
kind regards

Andreas Volk

WOW :eek: :eek: i see the price on amazon and for sure is very expensive !!!!

I hope it will be ok to post a link to official site of this impressive book where more info can be gathered:


http://www.arms-and-armor-from-iran.de/

Gentlemen,

I have not read a book yet, so here is my prediction:

a. It it probably going to be a definitive book on arms and armour, with great , well described examples.
b. I have yet to read a history book written by a persian that would not be dedicated to glorifying persian culture, persian tolerance and persian territorial claims (they usually claim Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Dagestan, Kurdistan and others to be 100% persian lands taken away by some colonizers), and so on, and so on. I am not going to argue these positions - it is not a history forum, just a matter of prediction.

So, my guess is 180 degrees from yours, B.I. - great catalogue of weapons but a persian book in all other aspects.

B.I. and Rivkin,

Let us reserve the judgements until we read it.
After all, as my wife said when she saw this huge volume " This guy must know a lot!"
Now, let's dig in and learn some new things, find novel insights, contradictions and just plain errors.
The rumors were floating for years, the promise to "explain it all" were made in advance and the only proper thing to do was to keep quiet and let the author do his job.
Now this book is out and in a public domain.
It is our responsibility to read it carefully before passing any judgement.
If it is good, let praise it.
If it is bad, let's critique it.
Enjoy the show!

Try asking directly Legat publisher. AFAIK is cheaper.

@ Ariel. The copy I've handled for a while was rock solid binding.
You deserve a new copy from the publisher IMHO.
Don't let bad luck discourage you to appraise such a nice book.

@ Andreas : You're right about the word "definitive" but I think it has been used here with joyfully enphasis rather than to be taken literally.

There is always a first time for everything and everybody.

Can't tell anything before reading it, but I was waiting for this book as promising source of knowledge. Mr. Manoucher (the Author) contacted me some time ago in case of Polish bibliography, he is in every way Gentlemen and I remember him very positive. I know he had many lectures on Universities, and the book was prepared with help of many people from many countries (hope I didn't make mistake and my memory isn't fault in this matter) including Iran. I believe this is good piece of hard work and it will be on of the most important reference books on this matter through next few years. Despite some nuances and differences in point of look. In Poland it is said that 'one is not wrong who's done nothing' :) (hope I make it clear in not my native language)
Regards!

I'm saddened to hear people making innuendos about a work of obvious dedication and passion .

Let us all come back and discuss the merits of this offering after we have read it for ourselves .

Rick

Book
 

I agree with Mr. Rick, we should wait, sort of read before you speak.
This is a link to a lecture (video) about the book by the author.
I also ordered the book from the publisher in Germany.
I told the publisher to hurry the shipment as I needed to start my exercise program, :rolleyes: it is a 9 pound book.
Gene
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...03819897907514

P S this video is over 1 1/2 hours long :eek: so it will take a while!

i made no innuendos, comments or judgements about this book. i look forward to reading it, just like anything else new on oriental arms. i only asked if the author used his own opinion to date pieces.
he has listed the inventories of 10 museums that have never been published before. even if the book turned out to be completely useless in text, it would be invaluable for this alone.
if i learn one new thing in a book, then the cover price is justified.
everyone looks for different things in a new publication. for me it is good pictures and a strong individual opinion. i was intrigued to see which stance the author took, whether he went through each piece and described and dated them, or just photographed and copied what he saw. i dont see this as pre-judging, more curious and impatient.

I didn't say that you did B.I.
I regret that you construed it as such .

As a matter of fact, I kind of like somewhat tattered books (just like "very used" swords and comfort food :) )
I am not going to use this book as a "coffee table" one (or, at least, I hope not! :) ) , so some feeling of wiggly binding does not scare me. I just hope the pages do not start falling out. Then, it's bad :eek: :eek:

Is the binding just a bit wiggly or has it actually pulled apart, as is the impression I got from your first post?

Either way I cannot imagine there are many faulty copies which have been sold.

The book is quality! The materials used are quality, the content, the pictures...and it actually presents a good year or 2 of reading for me, not that I'm a slow reader, just that I have little time on my hands these days.

I would recommend anybody who has an interest in Persian Arms and Armour to buy this book

Hi Mumtaz. Great to see you here. :)

Gentlemen:

As the saying goes, "there is an elephant standing in the room and I'm not going to ignore it."

The author of this book is well known to many of us. Likewise, some here have had prior disagreements with Manouchehr here and on SFI. He no longer posts here, and will be unable to personally respond to comments about his book.

Constructive and civil criticism of the book itself is welcome. However, uncivil, impolite or harsh criticism is not. Nor will personal attacks or editorial comments about the author be permitted. We have not tolerated this about other authors and books, and we will not start now.

We have had inter-fora issues in the past, and I am not interested in seeing them resumed.

Thank you for your anticipated cooperation.

Andrew
Vikingsword Staff

Thank you Tsubame, yes the price is more reasonable :)

Ordering directly from the publisher via the link above and paying with their linked PayPal option cost 177 euros ($230) including air frieght.

Thanks Andrew....good to be here!
I just saw the keris forum today so that's an added bonus to this site :)

Well said, Andrew. Thank you for making this clear from the position of the staff here.

Hello,

I absolutely agree with Mumtazb: this book is of the highest quality with over eight years of research within it. Both the text and catalogue sections are excellent. The text is all academic, and there is an extensive bibliography for you, the interested party, to start your own research.

The same quality goes for the binding. What has been described as "weak binding" is certainly out of the ordinary. For my part, I have held the book vertically quite a bit, and the binding holds well. I suppose if the book is manipulated while held vertically, it could damage the spine, but that is the same for any large book. A book of this siaze, as suggested, is best enjoyed if it is placed horizontally on a flat surface. However, that has nothing to do with the quality of the book's content: it has plenty to do with common sense. Keep this in mind when looking at it.

If one is interested in Persian arms and armor, this is, quite seriously, the best book on the subject. And I would like to say something about "definitive" as it has been used. If one thinks of "definitive" as a static thing, a definition written in stone, then this book is not "definitive." But if one thinks of definitions as things that change, particularly in academics, then this text is "definitive" as a starting point. Manoucher will be the first to state this. Regardless of how one regards this book, it is a fantastic starting point for future research.

Sincerely,

Doug M

Not to start an argument, but this "prediction" has nothing to do with Arms and Armor from Iran. Any "prediction" is a gross generalization and appears to make an attempt at, somehow, attacking the author. I truly wonder what is the point of claiming that "I have yet to read a history book written by a persian that would not be dedicated to glorifying persian culture, persian tolerance and persian territorial claims."

It is best for readers to ignore the "predicted" association of "a persian book in all other aspects" and read the text. This is not a time to "enjoy the show"--whatever that means--but a time to review what has been written and comment on it in a respectful manner.

Sincerely,

Doug M

Hi Doug, good to see you here as well. :)

Didn't you and Mumtaz help edit the book? Personally, I'd love to hear more about that process and a "behind the scenes" perspective once I've had the chance to look it over. Did you edit only the text portion, or did you get the opportunity to participate in the photos and captions as well?

Best,
Andrew

Yeesh. It goes to show that if someone wants to be critical, they don't bother much with the details. :rolleyes: I am not trying to belittle Raymond Sauvage, but to tear down a work by English-speaking authors by referral to Norwegian-language articles, one of which was published after the book in question, is just ridiculous. Even more so as he wrote, when asked to help locate copies of the articles, that "I think you guys sholdn't put to much energy getting those two articles. One of them is obut the theory of reconstruction versus imitations, the other one is a description of the Norvegian-Rusian sword project." How can it be that the articles he uses in his critique are are ones people "souldn't put much energy into getting?" Then he characterizes the most up-to-date English work (six years old by then) as "out of date."

I guess I am being critical of Sauvage, but that kind of gratuitous, at-any-cost criticism just burns me up. :mad: I am sure that anyone reading any of the works he cited could come up with equally severe, and equally weak, criticsim. It is highly unfair, and small-minded, IMO. And as an aside, I'm not aware that Sauvage has ever written a single word on the subject to contribute to the academic literature. Then again, most literary critics can't write (except a newspaper column) - that's why they are critics and not authors.;) I'm a big fan of the philosophy that if you can't walk the walk, don't talk the talk.

As for Manoucherer, I don't think anyone is accusing him of being less than thorough and comprehensive. Still, it won't surprise me if some finds some fault to harp on. As we say in the legal business, "if the facts are against you, argue the law; if the law is against you, argue the facts; and if both are against you, just argue." :)

I must stop, as I am in grave danger of hijacking the thread. :o

I think we've just resumed "interfora issues" :D :eek:

I certainly hope not Wolviex; it is nothing but an exercise in futility . :(

Quoting Mark, I am in a mood to argue. Just argue. No facts, no law, just sheer and unrestricted desire to bare my fangs, growl and spill blood!
I AM MAD AS HELL AND I AM NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE!
And the target of my aggression is......
Wrong!
Nothing to do with Mr. Khorasani's book!
It's the word " interfora conflict"
Forum (pl. fora) is a noun.
The sentence above requires an adjective which would be... what?...
foral? foruminal? (we cannot use "foraminal", it already has a meaning: "Hole-related")
So, my dear fellow Forumites, since none of us has a right to critique the book ( yet !) , I am offering a distraction game: Find an Adjective!!!
This will occupy our competitive juices for a while.

Words carved out from gold.

Flavio, if you're italian and live around Milan or can reach me in an easy way,
a friend of mine has just received the copy that will be presented to me as a gift for a past favour I (joyfully) made. If you want to see it personally before spill an anyway considerable amount of money, PM me.

BTW the person I mentioned collects persian swords (too, not only) and refers to the book as "something never view before" and *underpriced* for its level. Being over than 70 y.o. and still working for the Università Statale in Milano, I can assure you that access to sources, time and knowledge has never been a problem for such a person. I've seen his copy during my last visit (see keris forum) and now I'm trying to find out a place in my library.
I know nuts about persian weaponry, but it is a must to better know metallurgy in other countries if I want fully understand japaneses one.

Gentlemen,

I am yet to receive the book, but I am well aware of the ideology behind CAIS and Professor Farrokh; I also have read Manoucher's posts for quite a while, so I know his opinion as well.
You see, there are two fundamentally different views on Persian history - one is that Persia is an ancient country that united Aryan people based on a common heritage and culture. Its Persian army is a direct descendant of traditions and ideas of Achaemenid Empire; it was a creation of Persian genius. The historical territory of Iranian people is that which was settled by Arian people (which includes Mongolia and Ukraine), or at least the one which was controlled by Achaemenids.
I think this theory is supported by CAIS and others. This is also the official opinion of IRI.
There is an element of truth here - the influence of Persian language and culture was extremely powerful, especially in neighboring and vassal states. Persian military of Achaemenid time was dominated by Persians and obviusly enormously influential as well.
However in my opinion there are a few problems - first of all, Persians can not remotely understand any of those Aryan people - no Osethians, no Scythians, no Armenians, no Kurds, no anyone else. All of these nations always had their own culture and history, and persian influence was quite comparable to that of English language and American movies today - powerful, but does not make an American out of an Afghani.

Another theory is that Persia was always a colonial empire. Its army even during Achaemenids was composed of dozens of nations, from Indians and Arabs to Scythian and Greek mercenaries. Each unit came with its own weaponry and its own language, but was given a Persian commander and a Persian flag. Over time the military influence of Persians decreased to the point when under Safavids there were virtually no persians in the army - turks, kurds, later georgians and circassians formed the bulk of the army. Btw as far as I remember (I can be wrong - long time since I read it, so I am sorry if I am wrong) Manaqib al Turk is not a treatise on Khorasanian cavalry and its crooked scabbards - its a work on Turks from Central Asia (including Khorasan) with their weapons - curved turkish sabres. Persians remained in control of the beurocracy; religion was controlled by "arabs" (sayeds), finance went to armenians and so on and so on. Again, each of these army units came with their language, this time - with their own commanders, with their weaponry and with their tactics.
Some of these nations were more loyal to the Persian Throne, some were less loyal. Kartli and Kacheti rebelled every 50 years; Afghani tribes where constantly attempting to dominate the region; turkish tribes of Kizil-bash confederation, Afshar and others where involved in endless bitter war for the Throne of Shahanshah. Even Persian history changed to the point that Jamshid and his son Tur would be believed to be fathers of all Turks (as in Pan-Turanism - in fact invention of Persian court poerts and philosophers) - see Minorsky and his works on Iran and Caucasica.

This opinion exists outside or Iran; those who voiced it inside Iran were jailed, killed and tortured (Chehregani).
In short - I support the second opinion, I strongly believe Manoucher (If I am wrong, I will personally apologize before him and his supporters), Farrokh and others support the first. There is no shame in disagreement, but I think the community should read Manoucher's book, just as everything written by me, knowing that there is a fundamental split in opinions and two rather opposite views on Persian military and Persian history.

Finally - I am no expert on Persia or weapons, so treat everything I say with a pound of salt :).

Thanks Rivkin for the explanation of controversies surrounding the historical influences of Persia and what constitutes things Persian. Without wishing to set aside what you have said, I think we need to view this new book in terms of its stated objectives and the real contributions that it is making to understanding weapons, albeit within a cultural and political context.

We are all free here to express differences of opinion and perspective, but I think we need to maintain our focus on the weapons and what this book has to contribute in that regard.

Ian.

Hmmmm, I was reluctant to join this thread, but I think its time.

Ive known Manouchehr for a very long time, since I entered into the sword collecting world. I also have to say that my experience with him was a very bad one. I also disagreed with him, like Rivkin did, on many historical points and facts. However, besides all that, I really believe that Manoucher, has put his blood into this effort. He has been working on it tirelessly for years, traveling to and fro to areas of field research, examining museum inventories, manuscripts, old books, experts in the field, and completed this complilation.

I understand that history cannot be separated from antique weaponry, and that some will disagree with Mr. Khorasani on historical points, but Im sure that his effort in this compilation is great, and the information he provided is priceless to those whom are interested in the field of Persian weaponry.

This book sound quite a tome. It is a little pricey. Can anyone say how comprehensive it is, or is it another book that just concentrates on the luxury artifacts.

Rivkin has put his finger right on the point: the foreword for this book is indeed written by Prof. Kaveh Farroukh and it is everything Rivkin described. In general, there is " an uniterrupted evolution of military arts, technology and tradition... ( from)... the original Kurgan-Aryan arrivals into Persia".
In short:
Persian culture spreads from the Ukraine to the end of the civilized Earth ( and even primitive Arabs and barbarous Turks learned how to pick their noses from the highly cultured Iranians they defeated time and time again); Europe owes Persia an enormous cultural and military debt for stopping the Ottomans and this debt was never acknowledged; Persian recovery from the crushing defeat at Chaldiran was due to Abbas' " military genius" ( the fact that Sir Robert Shirley took over the re-organization of Persian military is conveniently forgotten); Nader Shah's military exploits are no less than "brilliant" and a brief mention of his invasion of Delhi does not go into pesky details of pillage, plunder and mass slaughter of civilians.
There is such thing as a viewpoint and then there is bias.
There is national pride and then there is jingoism.