Definitive Warfare
 

Nice Kris, wish it were mine. Price went too high for me. http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=270011877643 In past posts I have speculated the curves in the blade (early kris) were for beheading the dead & wounded. I've posted an example & believe this is another sword that shows quite a bit of wear on the outer curves, suggesting it was used in a hacking/saw method to remove heads.

Out of Control
 

Ooh Baby !!
I can feel my net worth climbing !! :D

Wise move to step out of that one Bill .

The rare beauty went wild... way pass my budget...:eek:
Fierce competition...

Oh my ...
 

Hopefully this is not the future trend.

Yes, it is a nice older style of kris, with a beautiful blade. Guess someone just had to have it.

Anyone here get it?

Got a feeling it was Bill's friends Dave and Lonna . :cool:

Yeppers. They know quality.
:D

Love the twistcore......still glad I didn't go for it. :o

love the twist core too.....
but too much dinero for my blood.

Though they say that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder," I know Dave and Lonna well. They have an outstanding knowledge of Moro and Dayak weapons. If Dave wanted it this much, I assure you all that it is worth more.

My regret is that my bidding made them pay much more than if I had not bid.

Though I like the Moro and Dayak weapons, my main focus is elsewhere. But I still want a few exceptional Moro and Dayak pieces.

Lol, you mean they have a lot of money to spend... :D


Btw, Bill, that's a pretty close description.

They have been collecting for many years. Museum quality pieces. I don't believe that you would consider them wealthy financially, but wealthy in terms of knowledge and absolutely in terms of friends.

Don't understand what you mean.

:confused: :confused:

Willie , I gotta ask; are you here to share information ?
Are you here to wisecrack ?
Are you annoyed with the collecting community ?

What's up ? :)

Feel free to be candid; it's okay .

hhmmm...kinda curious about that one myself. :rolleyes:

I did not know that i need a reason to be here, Rick. Thought it was an open forum to the public. I'm making comments as I see fit. Please read this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2851 . If you don't like what I post, I believe there is an option where you can put me on your ignore list. And that goes to anyone else who feel my posts are not icky sweet. We're all adults here (I hope), and there's a certain kind of bias in this forum as we all know; so knowing that some people can get away asking the damnest question without getting banned/locked out, please do this: IGNORE MY POST!


So going back to your questions, Rick; are you assuming that I'm wisecracking ? Well, let me ask you this; is that how you percieve it? IMHO, I'm not. Am I annoyed with the collecting community? No, but I am tired of seeing the prices of these swords go up and everyone here act like it's OK. I know it's inivitable (sp), but a message to the price drivers, please don't pay that much for something you don't know squat, or just because it looks "pretty" to you. There are actually some people who collect it because it means more than an art object, that these artifacts are the bridges to someone's heritage, and with the prices going up at this rate, the future generation would never know.

Hi Willie:

You are, of course, free to express your opinions as freely as anyone else here. I think Rick was asking you the questions he did because your answers have been somewhat cryptic and it was unclear what you were getting at a few times. I don't think anyone was taking offense with you, just trying to clarify what you meant.

That said, I think you have answered Rick's question in that you do seem to have some issues with the collecting community for driving up prices on items that might otherwise be affordable to individuals within the original culture from which they came.

We have actually had similar discussions here in the past. One point that has come up repeatedly is that many of these heirloom items may never have survived at all were it not for the collecting community who have patiently maintained them for many years. We have often remarked that museums do not value edged weapons very highly unless they are of exceptional quality or historical significance. Even exceptional quality is not a high enough priority for many museums to spend large sums maintaining them in the condition they deserve. The collecting community actually does that, and more. So there are pluses and minuses to the way things have evolved.

If these items were valued as highly as you suggest within the host culture, I suspect some way would be found to repatriate them through a concerted buying back program, much as happened with Japanese swords. I'm not seeing that with Moro swords, which is a pity. Perhaps you could work on organizing such a program. Unfortunately, the market place has its own momentum, and there is not much anyone can do about that, much as we might like to.

Regards,

Ian.

I read his posts and smell a whiff of somebody else.... You know...

Uh oh, do you mean that 'someone' who is not around anymore? :eek: :confused: :rolleyes:

Hey Willie, where on earth did you get the idea that "everyone here" is acting like these escalating prices are OK. Re-read the thread you linked and then re-read this one. Are the majority of responses really in favor of this super high prices?
I don't think Rick or anybody else is looking to shut out your words with the ignore feature (at least not yet :rolleyes:. Nobody is demanding that you need a reason to be here either. But you have made a number of allusions to knowledge that you have failed to follow through on. This forum is a place to share such knowledge. If you don't care to share that's OK too, but acting like you know something more and not backing it up doesn't hold much water on internet forums IMO.
You also make a rather broad assumption as to why various collectors collect these objects. I wouldn't begin to guess at why these folks Dave and Lorna collect Moro weapons. Likewise you haven't a clue as to my motivation to collect Indonesian keris. Why you collect is, of course, your business.
I truly believe that when Rick encourages you to "be candid" he means just that. But try actually saying something worthwhile and constructive with it. That's the trick. ;)

Hi Willie ,
Thanks for spelling it out for me .
I take no offense at what you have said; I have no reason to .
As a matter of fact I agree with you on many points that you have made .
I just feel better if we speak plainly here; I'm not much of one to pick up on subtle innuendos; call me dense if you will but I prefer it when people speak plainly and openly.

Personally speaking I have all the Moro pieces I will ever collect; two budiak two kampilan, two barung and 5 krisses . I would love to see these pieces go back to the Bangsamoro after I pass ; I would really appreciate it if they went to further the study of the history of the Moro peoples; but how to effectively achieve that is my question.
Perhaps you can offer an answer.

My family is tied to Moro history; my last name is Bates .

Rick

That's interesting Rick. Are you saying that you are related to Brig. General John C. Bates of the Bates Treaty?

Yes , and Kenneth French Anderson who was a missionary on Mindanao during that time (he died there) . We may be Yankees but we do have relatives in the South . ;)
Then there was Harrison Smith who did a fair amount of exploring in Borneo .

:cool: :cool: COOL!!!!! :cool: :cool:

Ian and Rick,

thank you for responding in such a mature fashion. Now I see where you two are coming from. Your respect towards your collection transcends what some, if not most, would refer to as an eye candy. I really hope that there are more collectors like you two who really respect these venerated objects.

As for your suggestion, Ian; it sure is a pity. I just hope that, if anything, the future generation will have access to what was once the pride and life of their ancestors.

And Rick, I've known for awhile your ties to my people ;), and with that I respect you more that you'll ever know.

respectfully yours,

Willie

Nechesh,

You must be the local internet warrior, lol. It seems like whenever a new guy pops up, you start showing your internet muscle. Relax, since none of my posts were directed towards you. Actually, I don't really care if you collect bottlecaps or what not.

Sorry mate, i'm afraid when you post on an open forum your words (or lack there in) effect everyone. Couldn't care less who you were actually aiming at. I assure you, i am very relaxed and my advice to you really has nothing to do with muscle, just common sense. Nor does it have anything to do with you being the "new guy". I will be very interested in you words about Moro weapons and culture when you really have something to say beyonds vague hints and inuendo.

Read this many times and debated on responding, guess which side won? :D There are several parts to this so bear with me and I will try not to ramble.
The current state of collection affairs (them being owned by non Moros ) with regard to Moro swords is not uncommon. If you look at Japanese society very few modern Japanese could care less about the Japanese sword. There are collectors of Japanese heritage but it is mostly a rich mans game. (The primary reason I no longer collect them.) If you look at the majority of the swords they are in the hands of the non-Japanese. These non-ethnic collectors are preserving the art. A sad commentary is that many of these are old timers and are not being replaced so the future state of collecting Nihonto is in question. Japan is only interested in National Treasures being returned anything else they have no interest in. Many have had swords that they wanted to return to families only to be disappointed. Many Japanese collectors come to the USA to buy swords.
Another example is the keris. I collect these. Only recently have a bought one from the country of origin. Most of my collection came from the USA or the Netherlands. So again it seems that the preservation of these artifacts is fallen on non-ethics. I know we have people on the list from Indonesian, what is the current state of affairs with regard to the keris is your country? Are the people interested in the keris or is the interest only a select few?
Now at last here is my point. Moro swords are seeing the same phenomena as relics of other cultures. In Cato’s book he points out a lack of interest in swords by Moros. I suspect like everywhere else there is little interest in preserving swords except for culturally significant (re National Treasures) swords. (Cato mentions one such in his book). While there are many who man not like it, this is just the progression of things. If you use ebay as an example how many swords do you see coming from MoroLand? This sword that started this thread was in the UK. I have collected a few, all from the US. I have only seen one seller from the Philippines selling on ebay.

Now my next point is a matter of perception and price. It seems many of us thought the price was excessive and is driving the price of these swords out of reach of the average collector. I submit to you that it is not. Here are my reasons why, in this thread;
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2851
Willie W stated, “Twisted cores such as the one shown were reserved for the panglimas, and not datus. Datus were dime a dozen, but to be a panglima is something else.” So lets go with this. This sword had a twisted core and was therefore most likely for a panglima. It seems accepted that the panglima was the right hand of a Sultan. If that is the case how many things destined for a man of this statue can be had for this price? While it was high, I like that fact that if I save and eat Ramen noodles for a year or so :) I too could buy a sword that was a step away from a Sultan. I can think of nothing else I can do that with. This sword is an exceptional piece that went for price that many of use could save for. I think we should all take heart those exceptional pieces like this are still within reach, albeit a stretch. Ok that’s it what do you’ll think?

I don't buy the statements, twist cores were reserved for panglima or panglima were the right hand of the sultan...
If "twist cores" were reserved for panglima would everyone be a panglima who owned an early kris?
If panglima were the right hands, why did Panglima Hassan of the infamous Bagsak battle/massacre lead 10,000 followers to fight the US, against the plea of the Sultan?

Corroboration would be nice ...
 

Mabagani:

I had similar thoughts.

Willie W. has asserted that this twisted core style was reserved for Panglima, and that they were highly positioned men in the Sultan's employ. Do we have some documentary evidence for either of these assertions? I would like to see corroboration of Willie's views.

Mabagani, you have visited Moroland and spoken with locals. Does your skepticism reflect data contrary to what Willie has stated?

Maybe there was the occasional "rogue" Panglima who was willing to go against the wishes of a weak Sultan, or maybe the Sultan was being duplicitous saying one thing to his enemy while at the same time having one of his Panglima do the opposite.

Ian.

The assertion was more specific but without detail.
I'd ask, so which Sultanate? and era?
May not be the right forum if we're delving into politics.
I gave examples that contradict comments on the thread when some are accepting them as fact.

Mark,

I'm only responding the way I was provoked from the previous comments that was directed towards me. I've been checking out this forum from time to time for years, much as I check countless other forums. It's fun to read internet forums when I'm bored. Now, you're threatening to ban me for having a regular poster attack me? Am I just gonna have this fool talk to me that way the same way he talked to the other new members in the past as well? should I cower and bow down to him since he's a respected member? Sorry but you got the wrong guy. Don't threaten me; if you don't like me and you're feeling like god, do it. Let it be known tho, this post will be posted on the main forum.
have a good day

In this case, his war minister might have given the order, but the Sultan and Prime minister were more concerned with keeping the peace and survival of the population during this period. Panglima Hassan and his followers didn't want to pay their taxes so they isolated themselves on their mountain. The death toll at Bagsak was grossly under recorded, Moro families were known to fight together and die rather than surrender. I'd question if the facts were revealed would it have been considered a war crime.
Historically, in regards to duplicity, one could write the Bates Treaty was written by a general and approved by the president but meant to be broken, an instrument to forestall eventual war with the Moros until after the Philippine American War ended, which is exactly what happened, once it was declared over against the Katipunan, troops marched into the Moro territories in an unconstitutional undeclared war with Sultanates that were considered sovereign. There were whaler ships from the US trading in Moro waters in the 1700s and military expeditions asking permission to sail in the 1800s. Ever wonder why there are so many kris, barong, etc...floating around, but once they dry up of course the prices are going to go up, candidly speaking and without crypt.

This is fascinating. Learning more about the Moro. I am re-reading Cato and he says that the Datus had considerable power, an ability to raise large armies quickly, -- sometimes more power than a panglima or even a sultan -- as many as 10,000 men.

Seems like the Moro did a lot of fighting among themselves and never really unified their tribes under one common leader. If they had been able to unify, they would have been a far more formidable force. I am impressed that they were still able to hold off the Spanish for almost 400 years.

There are far more erudite and knowledgeable people on this forum and I would like to know more. Pity there are such few books written about this marvelous people.

Can anyone recommend books other than Cato and "Swish of the Kriss?"

Mabagani:

History supports what you say about the Bates Treaty (no disrespect to Rick's ancestor). It was an American stalling tactic to avoid a further region of armed conflict until the fighting with Aguinaldo and the Katipunan in the north had been settled. The U.S. apparently intended all along to return to the "Moro problem" if necessary.

Another point of note were the gross errors in translation of this treaty from English into Tagalog. The English version speaks of U.S. sovereignty over the Sulu Archipelago, while Tausug version speaks of the U.S. offering protection only. This echoed earlier discrepancies in the Spanish treaties with the Sulu Sultanate. Not surprisingly, these treaties have created an ongoing difference of opinion that has persisted into present times with Moro disputes over the Philippines Government's authority in that region.

Some of the bloody fighting on Jolo, especially under the command of "Black Jack" Pershing, was called into question even in the early 1900s. The high actual death toll at Bagsak (not 300 as officially reported but several thousand, many women and children) was known to U.S. authorities and did eventually come out more publicly. A U.S. Congressional Inquiry was called for to investigate possible atrocities, and I believe it was approved by a House vote, but hearings were never held. General Pershing went on to other things.

This is obviously a touchy subject for many who are sympathetic with the Moro position. Let's not go any further down that path, though, lest we stray into a political minefield and get this thread locked!

As far as prices going higher, I'm afraid you're right -- it has already happened.

Ian.

Lighten up, dude. The idea is to enjoy our time here. Calling someone a "fool" is not acceptable, and you know it.

Take the chip off your shoulder and relax.

Really Willie, what ever gave you the idea that i was a respected member around here. Depends on who you ask i suppose. ;) :D
Mark is absolutely right about not rising to the bait, however it seems that it might be you who is baiting me and i am having a hard time just letting it stand. I have re-read my remarks to you and cannot find "attack" in them, yet you seem to have come on this forum on the attack and you have certainly attacked me personally by calling me a fool (a very underrated and misunderstood tarot card BTW ;) ). I have merely been encouraging you to get off the attack and share some of your knowledge that you have only up til now alluded to having. We are all here because we are starved for real knowledge about these weapons, not because we are bored and have nothing better to do than stirr up trouble. Again, i look forward to your sharing of the great wealth of knowledge on the Moro, which unfortunately, up til now, you have been keeping to yourself. :)

Countdown to thread closure & some soothing bans ....
 

... in three ...

twisted core
 

Can I steer this back toward the discussion of twisted core swords? I accepted Willie W's statement that twisted cores where reserved for panglimas based on what I know of metallurgical technique. It may or may not be correct but it is an interesting hypothesis. As I understand the Moro’s they where very aware of position. I believe in the world of the keris there where certain attributes of it that where reserved. Is this correct? Is it not unreasonable to assume that aspects of a kris could follow these same guidelines? That having been said; pattern welding is not an easy task. It requires great skill and time to get the welds correct. Much more so then simple laminated welding. In laminated welding you are folding like steel over and welding it to itself. In pattern welding you are welding unlike metal together. So making the twisted core would be a time consuming and material consuming process. That means expensive. The twisted core would not be what a middle or warrior class Moro could afford. So that bumps it up to the higher ups. I have been collecting and reading about Moro swords for a bit. I have seen only a very few twisted core blades, most of them here and one blade on Erik’s site. Has anyone done a study to see what aspects if any of the sword where reserved and for what rank? From Cato one gets the impression that gold was for the Sultan. There is also a bit of conflict here because I understand the Prophet Mohammed was against gold ornamentation for men. So this seems to me an interesting area to look into and one that could expand our love and appreciation for the Moro sword.

To help bring this thread back to the twist core discussion I present to you a blade of very complex twist core construction recently polished by Phil Tom .

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :(

How do you find these? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :o

I'm better now.

That's a beauty Rick. I hope you are pleased with the polishing job. I don't remember the hilt on this one. Could we see a shot of that as well?