my last keris
 

I bought in Yogya last week

Remarkable.

Indeed! :eek:

Is it possible to see the wilah Marco?

What is the stones used in the mendak?

Thank you

JustYS the new mendak is a very cheap type and the stone are blue glass

.

Well, i've never seen the likes of that and, of course, my first question has to be "Why"?
Are you willing to show us the blade?

sometimes i just don't understand mr Maisey's comments. Whether he's saying it seriously, tongue in cheek or something in between , as in this case of a very concise zen like comment "remarkable"

What is remarkable about this keris ?. i'm very ignorant about javanese keris (especially) and i'd love to learn what is remarkable with this one (and without the blade being shown at that!)

Nik

Hello Nik,

Please have a look to #3 and special to the attached picture, you will understand Alan's comment! ;):)

Hello Nik,

Detlef was already trying to assist Marco & Alan: While all fittings are in the traditional position (for a sheathed keris Jawa), the blade got fitted into the scabbard (and to the hilt) in a reversed position!

It's hard to imagine this being just an accident or a mere mishap of a tukang apprentice on his first day.

My imagination is not really up to taking any reasonable guess at the reason for such a deviation.

Regards,
Kai

Wait, how did you sneak in that last comment, Detlef?

Magic, pure magic! ;):D:D

Nik, will you please accept my apologies for being so obscure in some of my posted remarks. Sometimes I am tongue in cheek, sometimes I am deliberately over polite in order to attempt to avoid offense, sometimes what I might write will only be understood by those who are intended to understand it.

Above all it would be a mistake to take everything I write as being deadly serious, or as being cut into stone with a chisel and four pound hammer.

In respect of my "remarkable" comment, well, over 70 years of handling & seeing keris I believe I have never seen an (apparently) professionally mounted keris set into its scabbard back to front.

In my opinion this is something that is truly worthy of some sort of remark, but like Kai, formulation of such remark is beyond my abilities.

I guess I have two questions:

Why did you purchase it?

Why is it reversed in the wrongko? :confused:

I think we'd all like to know your reasoning.

Alan, Sajen and Kai;

I'm really not observant! my bad. Many thanks for pointing that out!
That is truly a first. "Remarkable" ! Rightly so Alan.I've never seen the blade in reverse position in the sheath like this also. Can anyone give any reason why ?

(Although I must say I've seen a LOT of hilts positioned in reverse position even by the so called 'experts'....)

Since Marco is not a novice at this, I am supposing that there is more that meets the eye here and that he is just chuckling;)

dapur Maeso Slurung / Nabrang

Hi Marco,

Which reference are you using for the dhapur name?

According to Empu Djeno Harumbrodjo (from your old post), dhapur Mahisa/Kebo Selurung is as the following:

I reported only the name of dapur that the seller indicated to me at my request

It looks similar to Mahesa Kathong with luk, but no kembang kacang. An interesting blade.
That said i can see absolutely no logic in the reversed hilt and sheath positioning.

This dhapur naming is perhaps a good example of the non-standardisation of keris terminology.

Marco's seller has given it as "Maeso Slurung / Nabrang " , "maeso" = "mahesa" = "kebo", kebo keris have a long gandhik, "slurung" is maybe from "selur" = "in a row", so maybe the name given indicates a "kebo keris with gandhiks in a row". Maybe.

However, if we use the Surakarta pakem as our reference, what we are looking at is dhapur Dhuwung Luk Lima.

Then we have dhapur "Mahesa Nabrang", this form has 15 luk.

Names used for dhapurs can & do vary from place to place, and within those places from group to group.

The Javanese language itself is not a standardised language --- according to linguists --- Javanese people famously have only one name, they do not use a family name, but that one name can change according to situation & context.

I do not believe it is possible to know all the name variations for pamors & dhapurs.

in the other way, no possible....or possible but no good for ganja (too much inside or to much outside the wrongko line surface)

Marco, just a gentle little hint:-

the word "dapur" means "kitchen" in Bahasa Indonesia.

the word "dhapur" means "shape or form" in Basa Jawa

"dapur" is not a Javanese word, "dhapur" is not an Indonesian word.

Hi David,

If I understood correctly the following is the correct orientation of the blade and the hilt (right Marco?) hence the reversed sheath positioning. Very unusual dhapur indeed.

yes YustYs,.This is the only correct position of this kind of blade. If you change position is the same if you to put a right shoe on a left foot

not the same daphur, but just to give the idea

cengkrong 5 luk , perhaps...but probably not

The SKA pakem cengkrong lacks kruwingan, whilst the SKA pakem dhuwung does have kruwingan, also a cengkrong does not need to have the back edge sharp, whereas the dhuwung does.

The subject keris has a sharp back edge and kruwingan.

Using the SKA pakem it cannot be anything other than dhuwung luk lima, but I have no idea at all what it might have been called at the time & in the place where it was made.

I do not think this is a Central Javanese keris, more likely East Jawa, and over there it could have a half dozen other names.

Actually, if we did allow that it was a cengkrong with 5 luk, in spite of the fact that it does not quite satisfy the requirements for a cengkrong, it would then be a Pandowo Cengkrong, not a Cengkrong Luk Lima.

I beg to differ, Marco: At least from a Surakarta perspective, this seems to be a non-sequitur.

Blades of mahesa = kebo family (including dhuwung if I may) seem to be consistently oriented in the standard position (with the gandhik to the left, tip up). All keris of one of these dhapur variants that I've seen so far (including pieces in Yogya fittings) had been fitted to scabbards (and hilts) in the standard position, too.

The only exception seems to be dhapur cengkrong/cundrik which does seem to be mounted "backwards" - not sure if this is always done? (I've also seen a cengkrong/cundrik with regular gandhik and kembang kacang on the shorter side - kinda with dhungkul vibes.)

Maybe the tukang confused these similar dhapur families? The scabbard appears to be modern, correct?

Regards,
Kai

please don't misrepresent what i write... i posted the picture taken from the Daphur book just to show why the handle is inside out

Hello Marco ,

I'm sincerely trying to understand your comments and also noted that you doubt the cengkrong attribution might be suitable for this keris in post #27.

What I'm trying to bring across is that both dhapur examples were not chosen well since cengkrong/cundrik seem to be treated differently compared to all other keris blades (including mahesa/kebo and, fitting best for your keris, dhuwung). This seems also supported by quite a number of keris from these resembling dhapur families that I've seen.

Actually, I'd be very keen to see how large cengkrong/cundrik blades are fitted into scabbards - those I remember exhibited not as broad blade bases as shown in the reference book.

Thanks for bringing up this point for us all to learn!

Regards,
Kai

Please look at the enclosure.
From "Ilmu Keris" by S Lumintu 1994

Marco, as others are pointing out, i don't think we are looking at a cengkrong or cundrik, if for no other reason than your blade having what to my eye appears to be a rather well pronounced extra long gandik. Since the seller named this dhapur Maeso Slurung (correctly or not) they seem to have recognized that by placing it in the Mahesa/Kebo family. So the orientation of hilts on cengkrong/cundrik doesn't seem to apply here.
This is what this blade put me in mind of, lacking a kembang kacang of course. At the time of purchase it was identified to me as Kebo Giri Luk Telu. I have also seen Kebo Giri named Mahesa Kanthong.
I do also see much merit with Alan's suggestion of dhapur dhuwung luk lima. While the pakem drawings i have seen of dhapur dhuwung usually suggest a somewhat broader/wider blade the yours it still does seem to fit the suggest ricikan well.
Though it possible this is simply a dhapur that falls between the folds. There probably should be a point where we stop trying to squeeze a keris in per-existing categories and simply just enjoy the blade for whatever it is. ;)

Kai I agree with the dapur name that the seller wrote to me. but I am just a collector, not a scholar

I repeat: I put the figure taken from the dapur book just to show how the handle should be placed. Sorry for my English. I use goggle translate

please, David can you show me how the keris is inserted in the gajaman?

Hello Marco,

No worries - we're pretty much all students here... ;)


Yes, but my suggestion is that this specific hilt position is only applicable to cengkrong/cundrik. Not to the mahesa=kebo family of dhapur (including dhuwung).

For example, all blades in Haryoguritno's book "Keris Jawa ..." are shown in standard orientation except for cengkrong/cundrik.

Regards,
Kai

Sorry if you were not able to understand what i was attempting to communicate in my previous post.
As Kai has repeated, the position of the hilt that you show is ONLY correct (at least according to this diagram) for cengkrong and cundrik. I personally do not believe that your blade is either one of those dhapurs, so your diagram does not apply to your keris.
I am sorry that i do not have any better images at this moment to show you how my Kebo Giri fits into the wrongko, but i can assure you it is in the usual manner. You may be able to tell that from this over all image though.
Again, i have NEVER seen a keris fitted to the wrongko in the reverse manner of your keris. I have no idea why anyone would do this.

because otherwise it is impossible to insert the blade (my blade) correctly in a jogya gayaman and I think it is also impossible in a solo gajaman. It might be possible to fit it into a custom made scabbard...but that would be not a sacrilege but a very great mistake

Well, to be fair, cengkrong/cundrik are (always?) fitted in such a reversed position. And these dhapur are arguably close to the mahesa=kebo family (including dhuwung). I see how it could happen nowadays; I don't think any experienced tukang from tanah Jawa would do this though. But, as mentioned above, I'd be very interested to see examples of cengkrong/cundrik with wide base being fitted!

On a side note, a significant proportion of cengkrong/cundrik coming onto the market in western countries are missing scabbards for whatever reason (arguably, this is also true for antique keris in general and seemingly higher proportions of cengkrong/cundrik may only be a sampling artefact since they are not common). Also quite some seem to come out of western Java: I have no idea what customs regarding these specific dhapur apply for orang Sunda.

Regards,
Kai