African (?) knife
 

Hi everyone !


I recently bought an interesting knife, with a nice handle, but I'm having trouble determining what it is exactly.


I've seen somewhat similar daggers described as "moorish daggers" with no further information (http://www.africanarms.com/gallery?m...m-mali-39-2-cm). It also has some similarities with some faca de ponta, but the sheath looks rather african in my eyes. Someone in a group suggested that it was a Yoruba knife, but I haven't been able to find something similar.


The handle is heavy and made out of bronze with a hard wood (ebony ?) insert. The sheath is made out of leather with some textile covering, maybe red velvet originally.


I've started cleaning the blade that was deeply pitted and rusted, it has a "wavy" engraved design near the spine on both sides. The whole knife is 36.4cm long.

Thanks in advance for your help and let me know if you need any more pictures or information !

An South American dagger, I guess Brazilian, I have seen 19th century Faca de Pontas like this, Mineira knife could be an other possibility.
See this threads: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...azilian+dagger
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...azilian+dagger
The handle construction and the bolster are give aways for me.
Very nice knife.
Attached some 19th century Faca de Pontas from my collection.

From up to down: 32,4 cm, 39 cm, 32,5 cm, 18 cm

Regards,
Detlef

Wolf-Dieter is wrong in this case, the shown dagger is clearly a Faca de Ponta. The scabbard is also very typical for a FdP.

Can you show a picture from the bolster like this?

I agree with Sajen. Very much a Spanish-style knife with a South American hilt. Most likely from Brazil. The blade profile is a little different from the common 20th C versions of the faca da ponta, but it may be an older historical form. Trade between Spanish colonies was common, and of course such trade was the norm between Spain and its colonies. That such knives ended up in northern and western Africa is quite understandable.

Thanks! 🙂



So most likely a South American knife with a West African sheath? That's quite a travel for a knife!



Here is a picture of the bolster :

A Spanish knife from the Spanish Sahara. 1880 something to mid 20th century.

Adding a picture of the back of the sheath, it has a Mandingo flavor to it in my opinion

Also the fastening of the belt loops somehow reminds Mali .....

Yes, very similar. It's somewhat typical. ;)

Hello Tim,

First date I would agree, second is too late. Late date around 1910 would be my guess.

Regards,
Detlef

Hello all,

I am not sure if the scabbard is West African work. Could even be a replacement scabbard from South America. :shrug:
Many West African knife scabbards have a wooden core so far I have seen.

Regards,
Detlef

Hi Detlef,



While the origin of the knife itself is still somewhat mysterious, I'm pretty sure the sheath is African.


In addition to the general look of it, the belt loops and their fastening are typically African (for example : https://www.quaibranly.fr/fr/explore...-gaine/page/6/) as well as the stitching and type of leather used.


I might add that I picked this knife from a lot of North-West African, see picture attached.

Dealers frequently lump items together in groups and get descriptions and origins completely wrong. A past owner may have added the loops to a sheath meant to be shoved in behind a belt, like most South American knives. The subject knife doesn't seem to fit in the group of knives in the last post.

Hi Yvain,

Possible, you have it in hand! ;)

It could be that the knife right from the one in question is a Faca de Ponta as well but I need to see the blade.

Regards,
Detlef

Well, while searching for similar sheaths to make some comparisons, I did found something very interesting, namely the first picture below. Sadly, I wasn't able to find its source or anymore information about it besides the file name ("mandingo short sword old african dagger antique knife"), but I think this is still a very interesting find for several reasons.


First, and even without seeing the blade, it is a way closer match to my knife than any faca de ponta I've seen before : the handle is very similar in shape, seems to be entirely made out of bronze/brass, and with the same central turned, dark wood insert ; at first I even thought it was an old picture of my knife before noticing some slight differences. Second very interesting point : the sheath, which is also in a very distinctive african fashion, similar to what can be seen on some Mandingo/Malian knives.


It's not much, but it is definitely adding weight to Tim Simmons theory, and I would love if he could tell me more about it.


Kronckew :


This lot was sold by a private seller, not a dealer, and considering the comparable state of all of the knives, I'm led to believe that the lot wasn't created yesterday, but I might be wrong. Regarding the sheath, I don't think the loops were added later : the leather is similar to what was used on the rest of the sheath and shows similar wear, it is also a very common fastening method on african knives (see examples below) ; also, the embroidered motives made out of thin leather strips reminds me of what can be found on some Mandingo knives sheaths.


Detlef :

I also have a picture with the knives out of their sheaths, but I don't think the knife to the right of mine is a faca de ponta.




Anyway, thanks a lot to all of you for your help and suggestions, this is very interesting ! :)

Hello Yvain,
The knife that you referenced belongs to me and is almost an exact match, except mine, is larger, almost a sword. The craftsmanship is excellent, and the scabbard is almost identical except that it doesn't have the loops, however, this could be due to the poor condition of my sheath and they may have fallen off. The scabbard is leather, with a burlap-type cloth insert as is yours; there isn't any evidence that it had a wooden lining.
The pommel has a minaret tower look to it which would indicate its Islamic influence and since the Mandingo People are 99% Muslim, this certainly wouldn't detract from its attribution to these people.
I found this weapon to be well made, sturdy and I would guess a very efficient fighting knife.

Yvain,

The knife is a Chinese dagger, often called pirate dagger.:)

Wow that's amazing Drac2k!



I didn't expect the actual owner of it to show up! Do you happen to have better pictures of it, and would you mind sharing them here? Do you have any additional information about its provenance?

I agree, this is a pirate dagger from the Vietnam-China border. The Chinese attribute these items to the Zhuang people, and the Vietnamese to the Nung people.

I would not make any judgements based on a scabbard, dealers have a habit of mix and match.

I was once offered a really nice small Dha, in a steel bayonet scabbard, and I asked if he had the original that came with it. He did, and so I bought the piece.... he had swapped scabbards because he thought the steel bayonet scabbard made it more saleable.

David,



While I definitely agree with you on the principle, I think that it might be more significant in this case, since the sheath fits the knife perfectly (even following the shape of the blade), and, more importantly, since at least one other example (Drac2k's sword) displays a similar sheath. More pictures of Drac2k's sword would certainly allow us to learn more on the subject.

Sure thing. While all things are possible, my bet is on African; also the scabbard fits perfectly(what is left of it).

Thank you very much for the pictures Drac2k ! It's truly amazing how similar they are, did a quick and dirty comparison between the two. How long is the sword approximately ?

Regarding the sheath, it definitely looks African (Mandingo ?) to me, and I'm starting to doubt that two very similar faca de ponta somehow ending up in African sheaths is a coincidence. I definitely need do to more research !

Enclosed is photo of scabbard from Mali with a typical cord fastening

I wonder to what extent we are being led astray by perceived similarities, possibly due to a common origin, and possibly due to convergent evolution.... I am thinking of the stacked grips, which do have differences in construction, and appearance.
I also wonder to what extent the European blade makers were finishing their product, were they fitting the hilts up to the markets taste, or just exporting bare blades.

Don't Dismiss African Origin
 

Hi All,

I think that Yvain's knife is very likely African. I found a website (http://www.africanarms.com/gallery?a...nife&ba-page=3) which shows a group of five daggers listed as Manding. The leftmost and center daggers in the set look so much like faca de ponta that frankly, if either dagger were to be accompanied by a characteristic fdp sheath, I don't think anyone would have too much problem seeing them as Brazilian fdp. The above website has other Manding examples that look a lot like fdp. The site also shows an actual fdp and says, "This is a Brazilian so-called Faca de Ponta, around 1900, you can see here the Spanish influence in Africa as well as in South America". It should also be noted that a huge portion of Brazil's population has African ancestry, much of it Manding.

Sincerely,
RobT

Hello Rob,

When you look closely you can see the differences, especially where the handle meets the visible blade. Old facas also have a thick bolster, often with brass or german silver.
But for sure you can see the influence.
BTW, the shown faca on this site is the one mentioned above. ;)

Best regards,
Detlef

i agree with the differences noted by Detlef. Faca da ponta typically have a brass (yellow or white) wrapped bolster and somewhat different hilt styles to those shown from Mali, the latter showing some adaptations of the Spanish style embodied in faca. There is a class of larger 18-19th C Spanish knives, often called "Mediterranean knives," that share some similarities with the faca da ponta. These Mediterranean knives have a short, brass-wrapped bolster and come in thin brass sheaths that are highly engraved. They are not very common, but are a nicely made decorative knife. A picture is attached from the Ashoka Arts web site.

.

Yvain, sorry about the late reply; the blade is 16" long x 2" wide with a total length of 21" long.

Not a Consistant Feature
 

Sajen & Ian,

Although the bolster/ricasso feature is found on faca de ponta more often than not, it is not always present as can be seen in the top three examples from my collection and therefore can't be considered a defining characteristic. My fourth example shows a faca with a ricasso but without a brass (or silver) overlay and thus matches the African examples on Wodimi's site. It is interesting to note that, in the three faca without a bolster/ricasso, a short, thick bolster integral with the blade serves as a tip for the hilt ferrule. My faca with the ricasso has a conical shaped integral bolster at the end of the ferrule. Examination (under bright light and magnification) of the other five faca in my collection (all of which have the bolster/ricasso feature) shows only one with a short, thick, integral bolster.
PS: The brass sheath for the third faca may or may not be original to the piece but it fits perfectly.

Sajen,
When I saw your post about Wodimi's excellent site, I immediately put it into my desktop favorites folder only to discover that it was already there from a previous search I had done about the very topic we are now discussing.

Sincerely,
RobT

Thanks for the measurements Drac2k ! And no worries, as you can see, I was away for some days too !

David, very pertinent remark, convergent evolution and perceived similarities can be very misleading in this field, especially when dealing with weapon with such strong cultural influences.


Martin, good catch with the scabbard, I can definitely see the similarities.



Anyway, I'm still digging through online museum collections, I'll let you know if I find anything. Maybe Tim could tell us more about his theory ?

Adding some very interesting information! This is an extract from "La Collection d'armes orientales de Pierre Loti" by Stéphane Pradines, showing an extremely similar weapon! Loti's collection is well documented and we know that this knife was acquired in Senegal. Considering this, as well as the two other known examples on this forum, I think we have good reasons to consider those knives as a type in itself of Senegalese / Malika origin.

Who Influenced Whom?
 

Hi All,

So what we have here are three examples of possibly Spanish knives showing African influence and in African sheaths or three examples of possibly African knives in African sheaths and showing Spanish influence. Since the Moors were a power in Spain until the fall of Granada in 1492 (when Columbus sailed the ocean blue), there can be no doubt that they influenced Spanish material culture as heavily as the Spanish influenced the material culture of North Africa. This two-way street quite possibly resulted in knives that both Spanish and Northern Africans were comfortable with and that, in some instances, are virtually impossible to tell apart.

Sincerely,
RobT

I think Ian’s explanation might be the most “Occam-ish”. Spanish cutlers made S. American style knives and exported them to Brazil. Having found a degree of demand in NW Africa, they expanded their export to an easily reachable nearby market.
That would also explain African scabbards with African suspension cords : scabbards are perishable components and can easily be made locally.

Instead of postulating chancy occurence of parallel development or something similar we can explain the appearance of same or very similar features of “Brazilian” and “NW African” knives by business decisions of the manufacturers. Similarly, some minor differences in the construction might be easily compatible with different manufacturers having preferred export targets.

Globalization did not start yesterday.

Not the Only Possible Conclusion
 

ariel,

I certainly believe that Ian's proposal is plausible but I ask you to consider these two arguments.
One, there is not one shred of concrete evidence to prove conclusively that the three blades in African sheaths are of Spanish origin. There are no blade stamps. All we do have is a suite of characteristics that are shared by North African and Spanish knives alike.
Two, the most visible elements on knives and swords are the sheath and the hilt. As such, the styling of these elements invariably reflects the culture of the wearer. For example, many koummya blades were made in Europe but the hilts and the sheaths were made in Africa. Takouba and Tulwar are just two more in a large array of examples of sometimes European blades with always native hilts and sheaths.
With argument two in mind, I find it strange that North Africans would accept a hilt not precisely of their culture. I also find it strange that any European cutlers would bother to supply hilts or sheaths when they could just export the blades alone (a la koummya, etc). This is especially true when one considers that non-culturally correct hilts and sheaths might be a negative selling point.

Sincerely,
RobT

All true. And, certainly, their scabbard are not Spanish. But the African "locals" could have made " local" scabbards just like in the Moroccan koummya story. And even Spanish scabbards ( if those were provided with the dagger), when they were damaged or just worn out, replacement with "local" scabbard was an inevitability.

Under no circumstance do I insist on the veracity of that "export story". But I think it is so simple and so reminiscent of other African stories ( takouba, gurade, shotel, kaskara, koummya, nimcha) that it may just be plausible. I, for one, think that it might be true, but other scenarios also may be possible. Occam was not 100% correct in each and every case:-)

You Make My Point Precisely
 

ariel,

The examples you list (takouba, gurade, shotel, kaskara, koummya, nimcha [tulwar and firangi can be added to the list]) to support the "export theory" are all representative of the point I am trying to make. In all these cases, we define the items by their hilts and sheaths not the blades. A tulwar blade may be from an English model 1840 cavalry saber but we still call it a tulwar because of the native made hilt. The same can be said of the firangi which may have a Italian rapier blade but will have a Hindu basket hilt. A good number of koummya blades were especially made in Europe for export to Africa but I defy anyone to find any koummya with a European made hilt and sheath. Regardless of who made the blade, if the hilt and sheath are a visible part of the wearer's costume, virtually without exception those elements will be native made (and it's a good thing too, because were that not the case, we would have a heck of a time figuring out where a lot of our stuff comes from). Why then should it be any different for the three knives under discussion? Why would the Spanish go to the effort to supply hilts (and possibly sheaths originally) for export to cultures that didn't want them?

Sincerely,
RobT

Hi Rob,

Exchanges of goods and crafts (including craftsmen) between regions along the Mediterranean coast and inland has been ongoing for millennia. Diffusion of styles has been inevitable, as goods and those who made them have moved around the various trading bodies. What works well or looks prestigious in one culture may also be desirable in another, perhaps with some local flair added. Human beings are an imaginative species and we like to tinker with other people's ideas and make our own, culturally appealing items.

We see a similar thing with automobiles. GM takes a Japanese vehicle, brands it with the GM label, and we have an "American" car. Same car, different label, but maybe some different tax implications. The only physical difference is the label. The "true" provenance of the vehicle (design, technical specs, etc.) is Japanese, and if we stripped away the labels we would say it is a Japanese vehicle. But culturally is it not also an American car (US materials, labor, construction).

What if we imported all the pieces and assembled them in the US, would this be an American car culturally? After all, the labor and construction occurred in the US. The Internal Revenue Service might be persuaded that there is sufficient US content to qualify as a locally made vehicle, and thereby provide some tax benefits. But is it truly a US vehicle?

I think we need to look at fundamental design. Edged weapons are defined by their edge, i.e., the blade. Hilt, scabbard, and decorative elements are secondary features, often adjusted to local preferences.

Getting back to knives in question, it seems to me that we have slender, double-edged blades with a centered point, often with a small ricasso or bolster, and circular hilts of diverse materials including various metals and wood. One style we might call Spanish (faca da ponta) and the other West African, according to the cultural decorative elements. The question of which came first is hard to answer. Given the exchange of trade, ideas and craftsmen within that geographic region, it seems likely to me that some diffusion of style occurred. I hesitate to say in which direction that diffusion occurred. However, given that the stiletto form has been around a long time among Mediterranean and Western European countries (and elsewhere) it's hard to know where its origin may have been.

Cars Are Culture Free
 

Hi Ian,

One can perhaps say that, for a brief time (1950-1965), American cars (the famous Yank Tanks) were characterized by a large size and flamboyance which set them apart from other cars worldwide. It could be argued that these cars were the final (and most extreme) example of American Streamline but, that being said, it should be noted that American Streamline was just an American manifestation of the Art Deco and there was really nothing particularly or distinctly "American" about it. With the advent of international mass market auto sales, any and all cultural design queues vanished. Today, an SUV is an SUV is an SUV. Regardless of where they are designed or made, automotive vehicles are styled to appeal to a global market and their technical specs (emission standards, safety, etc) are modified as needed to be legal for all countries. Given the above, I don't think provenance matters at all.
This isn't the case with the three knives in question. Here we are trying to establish provenance based on stylistic queues that are culturally distinct and are present because of their appeal to a niche market. I agree wholly with your point about stylistic diffusion in the Mediterranean. Which is precisely why I contend that, in the absence of any absolute proof, it can't be concluded with any certainty that the three knives in question are either of Spanish or of North African origin.
Regarding the faca de ponta, I have to say that I am convinced that the antecedents of the form came from North Africa because I am unaware of any Spanish or Portuguese knife that looks like a faca de ponta but, as Wodimi's site amply shows, there are a lot of Northern African ones that do. As a personal aside, I bought my first faca de ponta early in my collecting "career". At that time, I was certain that it was some sort of African dagger and spent a long time searching for an African origin until I stumbled upon the correct information.

Sincerely,
RobT