Arabic....North African curved dagger...comments / help
 

Just bought this and haven't been able to identify its origins. The handle has a sort of 'Flissa' look, and the engravings look similar to some Berber blades.
Apparently it was a WW1 'trophy', it is described as being 46cms long overall and the blade 28cms long. The carved wooden sheath has several brass rings.
Can anyone put me out of my misery....... I keep thinking of the tales of Lawrence of Arabia......overactive imagination ..AGAIN ;)

Aren't these pretty much Moroccan in origin ?
I had one of these as a child ; WWII item most likely from the souk ; it was definitely made for TWTFP.
I can't tell from the pictures if this one is a serious weapon or souvenir . :confused:

Hi Rick,
I have not received it yet, It is guaranteed not to be tourist 'junk', the seller buys and sells militaria so I would assume that he knows what he's talking about :rolleyes:

The dagger definately seems to have age and patina, (the pictures I received were very high resolution )

Souk ???? and TWTFP ??? Sorry for my lack of Knowledge Rick could you explain ?

Got one too :)
 

Hello katana,

I'm still unsure whether my variant is made for Those Who Travel For Pleasure or not. It has a thin 2mm blade, crude engravings and the scabbard and hilt only have brass inlay, not carving like yours. I had the impression that these are indeed Moroccan and that they have a ceremonial function -hence the name Wedding Nimcha. To me they look like a non-weapon derivative of the shula.

Emanuel

I agree with Rick: this is a North African bazaar version of Nimcha (or Zeus only knows what they call it). It is aimed at the tourist market, although I've been told that similar creations were used at wedding ceremonies, as part of the costume.
As far as I know, they have no utilitarian or military purpose and it is reflected in the quality of their blades.

According to Tirri (page 44) , these daggers originate from Algiers.

I think I know what you mean. However, the 20th century variant of the shula really does not look like these so called " ceremonial nimcha's " .

Like I said in my previous post; according to Tirri these ceremonial items come from Algiers. On the other hand, many describe these items as " ceremonial nimchas' " thus originating from Morocco.

just my 2 euro cents.

In the very near future I woll post pictures of my collection of koummya's, shula's and related items.

So is there the possibility that this is not a tourist ( or TWTFP, thanks Manolo for the clue in your post ;) ) dagger. ?
ErnestoJuan, could you please post any other information you may have, thankyou

Well, the grand master of all oriental arms describes a similar item as:

" A very decorative presentation “NIMCHA” knife / dagger from Algier. It has a 16 inches single edge blade of deep curvature. The blade is engraved in a typical design, inlaid with brass and filed on the spine. The hilt and the scabbard are made of wood and entirely carved in a typica; Algerian design. Total length 25 ½ inches. Very good condition. It is not a fighting weapon but a very decorative example and of good workmanship. It is a nice addition to a collection of Oriental Weapon / art, at a very attractive price."

here is the url for piccies:

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=1506

Other than the longer blade, they are indeed very similar, thankyou for the link :)

My pleasure.

THE OLDER EXAMPLES OF THESE ARE QUITE NICE AND THE INLAYING OF METAL INTO THE HANDLE AND SCABBARD AS WELL AS THE INLAYED TWISTED WIRE IN THE BLADES IS UNIQUE. PERHAPS THEY DID HAVE A FUNCTION OTHER THAN CEREMONY IN THE PAST AS I HAVE SEEN THEM IN PICTURES OF VERY OLD COLLECTIONS. THE NEWER ONES WITH THE PLASTIC IMITATION CORAL INLAY ARE SHOWY BUT THE WORKMANSHIP IS INFERIOR TO THE OLDER ONES.

This one has a blade that is very much "flyssa"-like. Algiers comes to mind right away.

I've been send further photos by the seller, I've tried to make them large enough so that the detail is easier to see, perhaps these could help to decide whether this is a tourist piece or something a little better ;) .
Opinions gentlemen please........ thanks

Katana,

On these newer pics the blade looks considerably thicker than my example, or is it just an impression due to the large pic size? If it is indeed thick and has a distal taper than my guess is it's a functional blade. On the last picture it almost looks like it has a false edge as well.

Ernesto, you are right that shulas are different, but other than shula and possibly the small flyssa I don't know of any maghrib weapon similar to these "nimcha" that could have influenced the appearance of its blade.
-attaching my shula for comparison-

hi all
 

There is the Moroccan nimcha.
It is a long sword.
galvano

Always wanted one of those sabres...beautiful!!
 

Yes Galvano, but that is for the hilt, and I was talking about the blade :)
The ceremonial nimchas are called that just because of the characteristic hilt I think, but the blade type is wholly different and it's only similar to the shula and flyssa (as far as I know, which is little).
I am planning a trip to Algeria in about a year or so, and I will definitely pass through Morocco and have a look at the many weapons they have...
Emanuel

-oh yes! there is the koummiya, but then the blade is quite different, is used differently and it doesn't bear incised decorations-

A very nice nimcha, Galvano :)

Dear Manolo,

A very nice 19th century shula you have there. I have one that is quite similar. With regards to these so called " ceremonial nimcha's" , I think that the blade of the 20th century shula really come close, not the 19th century variant.

I agree with you that the origin of the "ceremonial nimchas" is tough to pinpoint. Like you, I do not believe that they are tourist items. Who knows, maybe your planned trip will shine a light on this issue. Oh, and bring me back some rhino hilted koummya's will you ? :D


Attached are pictures of a 20th century shula I have. Again, I still do not have the time to take proper pictures etc of my collection due to private matters.

However, within the very near future I intend to post lots of pics of my north african collection.

Well, here are the pictures:

Hello ErnestoJuan

So it was you who got that interesting Shula!! :)
Thanks for specifying an age for it and for my own example -19th century sounds good. All of the shula I saw in books and on the internet looked closely like mine, so I did not know about their age.
I will definitely bring back as many goodies as I can, but that is in the far future, and after all, you're much closer to the source than I am. ;)
Thank you for the pictures and I await the rest of your collection.
All the best,
Emanuel

Manolo, what an interesting Nimcha.
I have posted two more pic's of the blade, IMHO I think you are right there is a false edge. Scaling the blade thickness with the carved pattern of the scabbard I think the blade is thicker.

I think, taking measurements from the photos and scaling them up I believe the blade spine is approx. 4 mm and seems to have distal taper.

See what you think :)

Hello Katana,
I would think that a 4mm blade can be useful in a fight, but then again I know very little about it. Your nimcha is definitely not a toy like mine, but I wonder how it would be used. Does one stab or slash with it? And what effect do the incisions on the spine have on cutting? How does it feel in-hand? Is the large hilt helpful or a nuisance? Mine is ridiculously large and useless, but yours may be functional.
Let's say it is the old, genuine ceremonial/wedding nimcha like VANDOO says, and leave it at that, because I really have no idea if you can fight with it or not :D
I'll keep my eye out for any more info on these daggers, but I think yours is a pretty good example.
Emanuel

My daughter spent last summer living with a Berber family in a small village in the Atlas mountains of Morocco. She described a ceremony in the village where all the men wore daggers, played drums and danced. At no other time did she see any daggers worn. She told me their daggers were similar to the couple of Khoumiyas I own. Perhaps these ritual dances explain the preponderance of non-functional styles of knifes from Morocco. I would ask her more but she's in Ecuador this summer where I'll be visiting her in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately, I don't think there are any ethnographic weapons available there.

Thankyou all for your input :) , I have taken a risk and completed the transaction on this dagger. Once I receive it ( will probably take up to 2 weeks, as its coming from the US), I will be able to assess this dagger's potential ....or lack of it.
I am hopeful that the blade is indeed functional or of a quality similar to the Oriental Arms version posted by ErnestoJuan.

Dagger arrived today, and I'm very pleased with it. The blade's spine is indeed 4mm and distally tapers to 1.5 mm. The blade is relatively sharp, noticeably more so on the apex of the curve. It suggests that it could be used with a 'slashing' type strike or with a stabbing action. The blade had some sort of green waxy material on it which was easily cleaned off to expose a very clean, shiny blade.
The handle is hand carved with thin inlays of metal which emphasize the carved pattern. Wear patina on the handle suggests use. The guard is not flimsy or springy and would definately give good protection.
The dagger handles well , in a stabbing or slashing action.
The brass work has alot of oxidation, very dark in some areas.

IMHO this is a fully functioning weapon, I can only assume that this is not a 'Wedding Nimcha'............

.......therefore.. it must be a 'Divorce Nimcha'......you could certainly cut all ties with this...... :D :D :eek:

Any ideas or comments, please gentlemen

With a 4mm spine it sounds very functional. A great many of these are not very nice and people are put off, well done you for picking a good one. I think my flissa has very similar patterns on the scabbard.

Thanks Tim, I am really pleased with it. :D The carving is of good quality too.
It seems to have a nice balance between ornateness (if theres such a word) and functionality.

Now I've a problem, it's not a bazaar knife or a 'wedding Nimcha'. Its functional and well made, it has age .......so what is it :confused:
It can't be unique, has anyone any ideas as to origin, now the functionality of this knife is confirmed....please :)

No disrespect intended ; but where and by what method did we rule out that this is not a well made example of either of the above qouted ? I'm sure that pieces like this came in many levels of quality .

All that I've read above are opinions .

It is after all possible to kill a man with a steak knife but that does make said item a functional weapon .


/Playing the Devil's advocate .

I see your point, but the blade is still relatively sharp, with no evidence of recent sharpening, it is very sturdy and feels very functional. The history given to me was that this was indeed a weapon brought back from WW1. The curve of the blade is less acute than the wedding Nimcha posted, making it more effective as a slashing type blade. The area mid way along the blade is the sharpist... again pointing to its ability to 'slash'.
The carving on the handle is very good quality, and improves the 'grip' considerably without being too ornate. The guard in the photos look thin and weak. However this is not the case, I have tried to bend it :eek: and found it to be very strong and would certainly protect the hand.

Why make a ceremonial knife with a functional blade.... surely ceremonial or ritual weapons are representations ......

PERHAPS THEY WERE MADE AS THEY ARE TO MAKE THEM LESS OF A KILLING WEAPON BUT STILL FUNCTIONAL JUST IN CASE TROUBLE STARTED, A MAN FELT NAKED WITHOUT A WEAPON IN THOSE DAYS. IN A GATHERING OR CEREMONY OR IN THE PRESENCE OF ROYALTY OR HIGH RANKING PEOPLE THOSE ATTENDING WERE OFTEN ALLOWED A CERTIAN TYPE OF KNIFE OR SWORD. THIS IS COMMON IN MANY DIFFERENT SOCIETYS AROUND THE WORLD ,SOME OF THE COURT SWORDS FOR INSTANCE OR THE WEDUNG IN INDONESIAN COURTS. THAT WOULD BE MY GUESS AS MOST OF WHAT I HAVE READ OR HEARD OVER THE YEARS ASSOCIATED THESE KNIVES WITH SPECIAL CEREMONY AND NOT OPEN WARFARE. THEY ARE DESIGNED TO BE ORNAMENTAL AND NICE TO LOOK AT AND NO DOUBT THE WAY THEY ARE DECORATED HAS SOME SIGNIFICENCE WHICH IS PROBABLY LOST IN TODAYS SOCIETY. SO IN A GATHERING OF MEN IF A FIGHT STARTED THERE MIGHT BE SOME BLOOD BUT MOST LIKELY NO DEATH AND THE GAURDS COULD EASILY STOP A FIGHT AS THEY WOULD BE THE ONLY ONES WITH REAL FIGHTING WEAPONS. I DO CONSIDER THEM A CEREMONIAL WEAPON AND DEFINITELY ETHINOGRAPHIC AND NEAT TO LOOK AT SO THEREFORE COLLECTABLE. CONJECTURE MY SPECIALTY :D

If 2mm thick blades are common to 'Wedding Nimcha's', and as a ceremonial dagger it's function is to look good, show status etc. Why has mine got a functional blade.
Pure speculation, could it have been made to look like a ceremonial piece, so that a 'live' blade could be sneaked into a Ceremonial environment, perhaps the 'bridegroom' to be, had issues with his new in-laws.... :D

It's a shame that the knife on Oriental Arms does not describe the thickness of the blade, however looking through the additional photos, the knives look almost identical. IMHO the carving and finish of the handle is not as good as mine, and there are slight differences in its shape. The blade looks to be inferior too, but that could be the photograph........or is it because I am bias .... ;)

Katana , I believe Barry hit the nail on the head in his post that preceeds yours .
The carving is quite simple to do and is referred to as 'chip carving' ; it goes quite quickly . Even 3 mm is less than an eighth of an inch ; pretty standard for these pieces ; mine was that thick also .

You certainly do not need to accept anyones evaluation of this piece however ; and I do give you kudos for your imagination . :)

I THINK THE THICKNESS OF THE BLADE AND QUALITY OF THE CARVEING ARE MORE OF A INDICATION OF AGE THAN FUNCTION. THE MORE RECENT MADE ONES ARE MADE MORE QUICKLEY AND LESS EXPENSIVE, SO THINNER BLADES AND PLASTIC RATHER THAN CORAL OR REAL STONES WOULD COST LESS. THE BLADES ON WEDUNGS AND COURT SWORDS ARE HEAVY ENOUGH AND COULD INFLICT HARM BUT THE DESIGN IS NOT VERY GOOD FOR FIGHTING COMPARED TO WEAPONS THAT ARE DESIGNED EFFECIENTLY FOR WAR. LOOK AT THE OTHER SWORDS AND DAGGERS FROM THE AREA FOR COMPARASON, AND SEE WHAT YOU WOULD CHOOSE TO DEFEND YOURSELF FROM SOMEONE WELL ARMED.

AS THERE IS NO CONCRETE INFORMATION ON THESE DAGGERS ONE CAN THINK WHAT ONE WANTS. EITHER WAY I STILL LIKE THEM AS A COLLECTABLE AS THEY ARE AN AUTHENTIC ARTEFACT OF THE CULTURE NOT JUST SOMETHING INVENTED TO SELL TO TOURISTS.

Thanks everyone for your input.....I suspect one of these daggers will, again, be posted for comments in the future.

I suppose, to sum up, it is likely to be a quality Nimcha type dagger from the Algiers ( Ref; Oriental Arms) and probably ceremonial in nature, with a 'useable' blade. ;)

It is a nice knife, hopefully new information will help decide how these knives should be catergorised and labelled but, until then I think the description above will have to suffice...

This Nimcha (wedding?) has just finished on eBay.....e-mailed seller...the blade was 4mm and very similar to the one I own..but has an less acute curve..tried a late bid ..but missed out. It seems there are more Nimcha 'daggers' with useable blades

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

Wedding Nimcha's
 

Hello ,
I was hoping someone in the know might help me . I just received a matched pair of the blades and scabbards identical to the one Manola illustraited in his post . They were given to me by my mother and I remember them in our house in the 1950's . She thinks the date from early 1900's but really doesn't know for sure . Was wondering if anyone ever got a definative answer as to their history and what would their value be ? Don't intend to sell them , just curious as to what I have here ?Any thoughts would be appreciated .Thanks.

Hager .

Hello Hagar,
welcome to the forum.... :)

Manolo posted two different types, which one are you refering to.

Regards David

.

Presumably real blades are spring temperd, show & tourist blades may or may not be.

Guess one can always hang up half a pig & stab away & see whether blade & tang stands the reality of serious reapted use or not ...

Spiral

Hello Hager,

It seems that WWII is a fair date for these "wedding nimcha" (Katana's and my first posts). It's likely based on the tourist flyssas and the second knife, the shula, which I believe to be a late-19th century type.
I got my nimcha for 50USD in 2005 and that was overpaying. I've seen them go on eBay for much less, and at times for much much more. I do not think they are worth more than 20USD in the west, and they're probably 5USD in the suks and bazzars of Morocco. Sorry it's just not a valuable knife, although it's a pretty-looking souvenir and may obviously have sentimental value.

I agree with what Spiral said, but I suggest you do not try cutting with these knives.

Regards,
Emanuel