Is this a common Arab Saif ?
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I have travelled a couple hundred Kilometers to convince a guy to sell me a basket hilt sword from his collection and came back with this item, instead; not even my collecting area. I know it doesn't make sense but ... i found it appealing :shrug:.
So far as i have read this is a South Arabian Saif, hoping it has some age, like mid 19th century ?. Handle and scabbard in silver, fully decorated. The one fullered slightly curved blade is rather strong, with its 39 mm. width, 6 mm. thickness and 69 cm. length. The langets are a bit twisted (more one than the other) but i will have the local silver smith to straight them up. Would you Gentlemen care to add your comments on this sword ? . |
Hello Fernando,
is the blade chromed? Not the area of my collecting but a very nice sword. It would be a mess when the blade is indeed chromed! :o Regards, Detlef |
Very nice saif from Southern Yemen. Elgood shows a few swords like this on pages 13 & 14 of his book on Arab arms, and Hales shows some on p.245, including a picture of the Sultan of Lahej and his retinue with such swords. Both authors express a belief that these swords were actually manufactured in Hyderabad for the Yemen market.
What intrigues me about these saifs is the hilt, which has a grip that resembles the Omani/Zanzibari nimcha, but with an Ottoman influenced crossguard instead of multiple branching quillons. |
Very nice sword Fernando. I always wanted one of these when I was collecting Omani stuff.
Stu |
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Fernando you're a lucky man, this sword is superb.
Teodor is right and provided the good references. But I don't think that these swords are from India but from Yemen. They might have been used in India but not produced in India... Fernando are you sure that you didn't buy the one from the Royal armouries? Its almost the same and dated from 1771-1799... :D |
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Stu, congratulations should go to Fernando, not me. I have one of these, but it is significantly inferior and does not belong in this thread with Fernando's excellent example. Teodor |
Anything belongs here!
There was a wide range of the “ luxuriousness” and this one indeed belongs to the upper 10%. But IMHO we should all be enriched by seeing the whole gamut. I have one from the same family, but it is too late to photograph it. Later, OK? |
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So you have one of these also?...................... |
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OK then, here is my rather mundane example.
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Thank you all Gentlemen for your input,
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Ah, the hilt top resembling the nimcha, Omani Zanzibar and, don't forget, Moroccan; the riddle of the egg and the hen, right ? Bu the way Teodor, can you quote futher paragraphs from those authors on the Hyderabad origin subject ?. Quote:
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Fernando, here is a short summary of what Elgood writes on these, He starts by stating that a lot of Arab swords loosely described as "nimsha" and "saif" get attributed to Yemen as so little is actually known about swords from the area, that most authors feel safe with that attribution on the basis that it is unlikely to be challenged. There are almost no sources before the 19th century describing Yemeni swords. When it comes to the type of sword like yours, it was initially attributed to Yemen by Charles Buttin. In the early 20th century the attribution was confirmed by Moser and Egerton based on what they were told by locals. Elgood then goes on to reference a photograph of a certain warrior from the Aden protectorate with such a sword, and then states that many warriors from Southern Yemen served as mercenaries in Hyderabad and "the swords are certainly made there and locally", there meaning Hyderabad. According to Elgood the motifs on the scabbard are Indian in style, not Yemeni. He also posts a picture of a fine sword that was a gift to George V in 1911 from the Sultan of Shihr and Mukalla. The sword is attributed to the 18th century, though Elgood has strong doubts it was actually made for the occasion.
Hales, given the nature of his book, is not nearly as expansive in his text as Elgood. He shows the afore mentioned photo of the Sultan of Lahej and his retinue and three similar swords in their scabbards. Hales simply notes that the design and workmanship resembles jewelry from Hyderabad and points to strong historic links between Yemen and India. Regards, Teodor |
Great input, Teodor: thanks a lot :cool:.
It is always interesting (and challenging) to check on the difference between assuming the provenance of things as being an inequivocal fact, versus their transcontinental influence carried by those who travelled among nations for whatever reasons. It is fascinating to realize that, this type of Saif would be Arab by culture, Yemenite by nationality, Moroccan (Zanzibarian) in its grip shape, its scabbard decoration styled (and even originated) in India, as could also so be the blade style ... and even forging. Interestingly the historic Yemenite Jews (Temani), famous silver smiths, that we know used to make weapons scabbards, are not called by authors to this saga. Let those with more knowledge, and willing, correct the (my) assumptions misplaced above :o . |
Based on existing photographic evidence, I think it is fairly safe to attribute these swords to Southern Yemen. As for where the scabbards were manufactured, I will defer this to other form members - we have experts in Indian arms and their decorative art. As you point out, there were certainly enough highly skilled silversmiths in Yemen during the 19th century, who produced beautiful jambiya scabbards and various jewelry, and who certainly had the ability to produced sword scabbards as well.
Interestingly enough, Elgood does not mention much about the blades and their origin. They are invariably slightly curved, with a single fuller and relatively short. Unlike Maghrebi or Zanzibari/Omani nimcha hilted swords, which have a wide variety of blade shapes and lengths, these seem to follow a pattern. |
Thank you for the excelent points, Teodor :cool: .
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:) Fernando scabbard has some similarities with other Yemeni scabbards. And if you look closer you'll see a consistency between hilts and scabbards... |
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A last point I think that Fernando blade is chromed not polished, but i don't see any problem with that. |
We probably should, starting with the question - do you think the blade is original to the mounts? We know there were a lot of Ethiopian swords imported in Yemen for the rhino horn hilts, with the blades then mounted with a variety of hilts and re-sold.
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I'm very happy with that... |
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I think you have bought extra-piece of its kind Fernando. Congratulations.
I hope I may add picture of the similar sword I bought years ago from Artzi, to your thread. I think my blade was made in Arab country - there is some mark like "V" on it. Unfortunately I have only old photos on flash disc with me (on the top of it in a group with another sabres, - I can make another pictures/closeups - but in July earliest). I think your blade is not chromed. Could possibly be nickeled. (But maybe also only highly polished.) |
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I am extremely pleased i was not counting with such contribution from all of you Gentlemen.
May i add that: I understand when Kubur says that there is a consistency between (the decoration of) hilts and scabbards. And may i say that, definitely the blade is not chromed or nickled, but highly polished. I take it that my jeweler friend and the silver smith we went to straighten up the hilt langet would have noticed that. The first confirmed this morning that the blade is polished and the second has discussed with me the methods to "unpolish" it ...not to "unchrome" it. . |
Thank you for your kind words, Martin. What a nice set of swords you got there :cool: .
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Fernando, I would also be interested in some good "unpolishing methods". Maybe fine pemza powder mixed with oil or water ?
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Fernando: it is not a common Arabian Saif, but one of the best Saifs I have ever seen! A great sword, congratulations!
I would like to add my humble example to the thread since this thread shows many reference examples. What makes it specially interesting is a blade with yelman. You may try for "unpolishing" a very fine sandpaper with 2000 grit or a 0000 steel wool. |
Thank you for your kind words and the pictures of your excelent example, Tatiana.
Thank you also for the unpolishing suggestions. Martin's idea for wet/oiled pumice powder would be a different method. Eventually my local silver smith also suggests steel wool or, as alternative, a (dishwashing) green scourer pad. In any case, i am not yet ready for such adventure and for the meantime, will leave it as it is. . |
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With an imported Indian / Afghan blade (these blades have a yelman). |
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IMHO!!! ;) |
From the photo above it is also obvious that the Royal Armouries wisely chose to leave the high polish on their example alone.
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Dissadvantage of the fine sandpaper (e.g. 2000) is, that when/if its surface is choked - you are starting to polish (instead of unpolish). On the other side - if the paper is new, you risk scratches (even in the case of 2000 grit) visible from certain angles. That´s why the fine pumice stone powder on the wet/oily and soft mussy textile should be (only my opinion) more regardful and should give steadier result... I think |
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I have seen a few of these. A polished or burnished blade is not uncommon, and for that matter common to many Arab swords. I think it is most probably how the original owners would have wanted it, so beyond cleaning, I would leave it as it is.
Best wishes Richard |
That is a settled matter Richard :cool: .
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Here is one I have.
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Excelent example, Mchael.
An European blade ? :o . |
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I have been trying to figure out was is the purpose of that little ring near the top of the scabbard, which i later associate with that little strap in one of the examples in Hale's work. My first thought was that this must be some kind of decoration, seen in some Saif scabbard examples.
But then i saw a thread in that Jens shows how a loop was present in some Indian scabbards, alledgely for the purpose to loop over a handle quillon to prevent the sword from slipping out. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23764. This is a rather long shot, plus i notice that the (woven silver) strap in Hale's example seems a bit short for that but, could it either stretch by pulling it up, or by means of some material elasticity ? Any better ideas, Gentlemen ? . |
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The more i think about these little appendixes being a 'lock' system, the more i am convinced. Look at these examples, how suggestive they are ... specially the one in the center.
(Courtesy Oriental Arms). . |
Hello Fernando,
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Regards, Kai |
What about the little chains linking the quillon with the pommel? Is that merely for decoration? Surely their purpose is not to act as a knuckle guard as they are too flimsy for that. :confused:
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Thank you for your favourable thoughts, Kai.
Victrix i take it that, the chain in place of the knuckle guard is a fashion practiced in diverse swords of diverse countries, and often discussed out there. I confess i ignore what is the consensual conclusion from such dicussions. |
Hi,
I have seen recently similar saif with loose blade in the hilt. Can anyone help me to understand the construction of that hilt (under the repuded silver plate)? I was able to find this general description in http://ageaeditora.com/nimcha-616/ " The identifying characteristics of a nimcha are as follows: Handle: can be made with various materials (ivory, tortoiseshell, wood, horn…). It´s shape can be curved or in lion´s head, with or without ears, as can be seen in the next picture. Tang: goes through the hilt and is fixed to it by a button-shaped rivet, or is riveted to a metal sheet of a size similar to the base of the hilt. Knuckle bow: starts from the cross-guard and its shape can be in right angle (original shape) or in “S” (later evolution). Crossguard: can be forward-swept, as the secondary upper quillion, or keep just this one, forward-swept too, while the quillions are joined together by forming a ring which protects the hand. " Was it attached with cutler resin? |
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This is a Nimcha~ The question is where is it from.. ? Firstly it is not a Maghreb style nor is it a Zanzibari . Buttin I believe places this in the correct category and I have seen variants similar from Yemen and Saudia...The design appears to be Hindi but that does not mean absolutely from Hyderabad but it could be because of the trade links and Yemeni Mercenaries working there. It could have been made by an Indian craftsman living in Yemen...But I doubt that as well and return to Hyderabad since it would have been full of such craftsmen thus Hyderabad gets my vote.
I think a look at the Buttin Chart plate XXX below will show just how close that author was in his deliberations on these weapons. Personally I have a great difficulty putting the whole story together on what went where ...and how if at all the Moroccan is related to the Arabian? . For certain there are a whole lot of variants and how much is influenced from India or Yemen or Saudia is the puzzle we are trying to solve. For Zanzibar the question is ...were any swords made there for which I have my doubts?..and suggest that swords were all imported in and from the countries trading in the Hub. Buttin lived most of his life in Morocco and would certainly have noted any relationship with Zanzibari weapons but he never did... In fact the three plates are entirely separate. 1009 and those straight guards flanking it probably sets out the variant we are looking at. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=buttin shows other similar forms and below what looks more like a Yemeni style although very similar ..Thus I think it would be a spllt decision to exactly place the pin point origin.. Yemeni/Saudia ? As for the cut out Knock under the pommel my view has always been that this was the pivotal point with which the little finger was able to swivel and twist the hilt giving it a very flexible feel in combat mode.. :shrug: |
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