Movies and Edged Weapons Pt. 2
 

Well, i think it's time to start transferring some favorite and on going threads to the new system. Here's the old thread for reference: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum.../002285-2.html
One of our Filippino friends mentioned that he would like to see a rousing epic of the Moros battle with the Spanish. I must agree that this would make a great film, given the right script and direction.
I would personally like to see someone do something about the Balinese Puputans. This could be a glorious period piece filled with deep meaning and purpose, colonial exploitation, exotic color, great battles, tragedy and best of all.....beautiful keris! Can't image what they've been waiting for with this one. :)

So
 

Who knows anything about the new Beowulf movie that is in the works ?

:cool: thanks for ,,zee kredit,, Nechesh ... :rolleyes:

I'd vote for a really well done film of Jos. Conrad's THE RESCUE !
Have any read this story ?
Would make an amazing film .

Since my chilhood days, I've watched many of the late P.Ramlee's Malay movies with admiration and he is considered by many here as a true legend as an actor, director, singer, composer etc.
After growing up with more indepth knowledge of the kerises and more observant about them, I have noticed many of P.Ramlee's movies using the keris with some "sad" circumstances. Nothing at all bad about his movies, which are all evergreen and very well done, whether it's a traditional comedy or historically or folklore inclined. It's just that I feel a little "tingy" when I see a Malay warrior or even a king with his traditional Malay attire of the "tanjak" and "samping", but having a Javanese Ladrangan keris stuck to his waist. It can also go the other way too when the story is about a Javanese.

Times have changed, but sadly the movie makers are still making the same mistakes. One very recent moive called "Putri Gunung Ledang" which was quite hyped up while in the making cause it was the most expensive movie ever made in Malaysia to the tune of RM20 million! The cast was "extravagant" and the director has had experiences in Holywood, and I was made to "dream" of the movie to be one that will put right many previous lackluster productions. BUT, so sadly, it was'nt much of an inspiring movie at all. The title is Princess Mount Ophir, a princess who played a big role in the entire story of the more famous Malay warriors, Hang Tuah, Hang Jebat etc.with a very "bad" king at the time of the Malacca Sultanate. Hang Tuah's keris, and arguably the most famous Malay keris of all time, the Taming Sari, is so sadly depicted more like a cross between a Balinese and a Sumatran keris, although there are no records of how it looks like, any keris enthusiast would have laughed at it instantly!! A few of the story line are questionable, and most of the fighting scenes are relying more on mystical powers rather than the art of Silat self defense. All in all, it was a huge letdown, esp. with the 20 million tag.
The late P.Ramlee's movie about Hang Tuah and the same legendary stories have more concrete story lines and stronger impact on viewers, me inlcuded. This 20 million movie is more of a love story that is more in line with Bollywood story lines, and the only compliment i can give is the attire, which just like Bollywood is "imaculous".
Worst part is that i hear this movie will be involved in, or is already a candidate for an award in the comming Cannes film festival.
For those of you curious enough, the link below has a very accurate story and pictures from P.Ramlee's films of the good old days.
http://sg.wrs.yahoo.com/SIG=120srqcq...%2Fmelaka3.htm
And the picutre attached is the 20 million movie, which is on sale, easily available and very cheap!

A thing wortrh of seeing - "The Pharaoh" - one of the best movies on Ancient Egypt ever done (and I know what I say, as Egyptology is my job). It is Polish movie from 1965 (Oscar nominee of 1967), available on DVD and VHS. A lot of Egyptian weapons, battle scenes etc. The action is fictitious, but the scenography has been prepared by Egyptologists.

And don't forget "The Legend of Suriyothai" with lots and lots of dha! :D (mentioned in an earlier thread).

Double vision (horror movie from taiwan)
 

check out the temple scene. brutal showdown of bladed weapons vs. firearms.

Just saw this movie. It has become one of my all-time favorites. For those who have not seen it, I highly recommend. Press relaease below.

Chatrichalerm Yukol's The Legend of Suriyothai (2001), produced by Francis Ford Coppola.

When a movie is clearly intended as its country's national epic, it carries interest for more than its entertainment value or artistry. The Legend of Suriyothai, the highest-grossing film in the history of Thailand, was directed and co-written by a prince of the royal Thai family (Chatri Chalerm Yukol). It was also lavishly funded by the queen of Thailand, based on a famous historical tale of intrigue, romance and war among Thai royals in the 16th century. And it was shot on the original locations with a cast that included dozens of speaking parts, 3,500 extras and 160 elephants. It's the equivalent of our Gone With the Wind, Russia's War and Peace or, to take a more modest example, South Korea's Chunhyang. Sheer ambition and grandiose make the film interesting.

Beautifully designed and photographed, Legend of Suriyothai centers on brave Suriyothai, Thai's national royal heroine (played by M.L. Piyapas Bhirombhakdi). In the course of the film's tale, Suriyothai sacrifices herself again and again for her beloved Thailand. First, in youth, she abandons her passionate lifelong love for handsome soldier Pirenthorathep, or "Piren" for short (played by Chatchai Plengpanich), and instead marries the monkish Prince Thienracha, or "Tien" (Sarunyoo Wongkrchang). Tien and Suriyothai lead a sumptuous but unexciting life, raising children and posing before royal gardens, as Thailand is plunged into both civil and external war - often with its incredibly obstreperous neighbor, Burma.

Then, however, the country falls into the scheming hands of beautiful but evil ex-courtesan Srisudachan (Mai Charoenpura), who poisons her lover, King Chairacha (Pongpat Wachirabunjong), and installs yet another lover, perfidious Lord Warawongsa (Johnny Anfone) from the House of U-Thong, in his place - temporarily ending the reign of the Phra Ruang dynasty, to which Suriyothai, Tien and Piren all belong. Fearlessly, Suriyothai and gallant warrior Piren strike back, settling Srisudachan's hash, retiring the U-Thong gang and bringing back Tien from the monastery. But just as the heroes try to calm things down a little, the pugnacious king of Burma comes roaring across the border again with his army and his elephants, setting the stage for one last incredible Suriyothai sacrifice.

Obviously, they love this stuff in Thailand. And you can see why. Suriyothai is Scarlett O'Hara, Queen Elizabeth, Jackie Kennedy and Wonder Woman rolled up in one.

As it is, the movie's luscious design and rich cinematography make it worth watching - though you'd be well advised to study a synopsis (like this one) carefully before trying to watch it. It is possible to have a good time seeing Suriyothai's legend, even if you can't spell her name. ? Michael Wilmington, CHICAGO TRIBUNE"

And a big thanks for Jose "The DHA" for bringing it to my attention!

You're quite welcome Naga Basuki. It has become one of my favorite movies and the main character is in the royal court herself, never acted before and did a superb job. Glad someone else has had a chance to appreciate it.

Also congratulations on your recent PI eBay acquistions (envy, envy, grumble, grumble.....).

Movies and Edged Weapons Pt. 2/Suriyothai
 

Got to see this movie the other day. I highly recommend it. Thanks to those who pointed it out as I would have whoosed right by it channel surfing. Saved it to the hard drive. :D

Lot's of Dha!! A couple of questions?

Has anybody seen in person one of those big ones wielded from the back of an elephant? Ever got to hold one? :eek:

I was suprised to see all the smaller dha used in a two-handed chopper / slasher style.
Where was the krabi-krabong two swords two hands supposedly of the royal guards? :mad:

I realize as a student of the Philipine martial arts and bladed weapons in general that in the heat of the battle all drills can go right out the window.

I still thought we would have seen at least someone like the scar-faced dude wielding two if in fact it's supposed to be decended from thai royalty guardsmen.

Just asking,

moose

Watched the Legend of Suriothai a while back as well, was wondering if anyone knew where they got their sword props. Alot of them looked nice, and not egrigious touristy junk. Amazing assortment of lavishly decotrated dha. Very well done visually, the interview with director (a royal prince himself) was real cool, and would be interesting to see his other movies (well non-weapon related, still sounds like interesting stuff). Would have been amazing to see what could have been done with better trained actors (as has been stated the lead is not an actress but a courtier). Though the deleted scenes are awesome as well, a shame that they were cut.

Ring of Fire
 

Suriyothai , yes !
I've got that DVD , a wonderful film .

Speaking of films , has anyone seen The Ring of Fire a documentary series on Indonesia that was made in the '70's by the Blair brothers ?

I first saw it on PBS and loved it .

It is now available on DVD ; my lovely Wife bought it for me at Christmas (five hours long). :D

I'm so pleased that everyone is enjoying "Legend of Suriothai". :) Here is another movie by one of my all time favorite directors, Kurosawa: "Ran". It takes place in medieval Japan and the story line itself is an adaptation of Shakespear's "King Lear". Actually I recommend all of his films like "Kogamusha", "Seven Samurai", and "Sanguro", etc. :) More recently I like the action and true sword play in the "Kill Bill" series. :cool:

Rick, yes I saw the Ring of Fire series and I thought it wonderfully done.

Speaking of Shakespeare
 

God help me , but I do dearly love Branagh's production of Henry V . :)

Hi Moose,

I've not seen the end of the movie yet ( :o ), but I have seen some very large dha. One in my collection measures 58", and could easily be late Ayutthaya/early Ratanakosin period.

Possibly it may look similar to this piece Artzi sold recently ?

This sword being seemingly socketed in construction could be configured as a short pole arm , no ?

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1461

Was this the one that featured John Chang, "The Magus of Java?" Personally did not really like the book, but I do know a guy who claims to know Chang personally. Lives in Surabaya, Java. Chang does seem to have some real power.

Would love to see the DVD

The person in the film is referred to in the titles as dynamo Jack , could be him .
If I recall he was referred to as an acupuncturist, doctor/healer .
He did do some demonstrations , one included making a piece of crumpled paper catch fire .

That is in the East of Krakatoa chapter .

Anyway, a great cultural mind trip of a series .

www.mysticfire.com

Movies and Edged Weapons Pt. 2
 

Andrew,
I don't want to give away the ending. ;) But the swords wielded from the back of the elephants are truly gargantuan.

Maybe I'm off base hear and they are not considered in the Dha family??

Looked like they were at first glance.

moose

Rick that is my favorite rendition of Henry V as well. :D

BTW - on the backs of those elephants, I too thought those were considered dha. And "dha" fighting on the back of the elephants!

A must-see film!
 

OK, i HIGHLY recommend you all go see the new Ridley Scott film "Kingdom of Heaven". The repros in it are absolutely amazing, especially some of the Muslim armor. Beautiful swords, great battle scenes, but ultimately a film more about peace than war. The acting is great, the cinematography sumptuous and Oscar-worthy. Actually worth the $8.50 and a must-see on the big screen. :)

It was a nice movie with laudable messages of courage, honour, love, peace, humanity, faith and very importantly, an attempt (not perfect, I agree) at unbiased portrayal of both Christian and Muslim sides. And Ghassan Moussad (portraying Salahuddin) has a laser-beam stare that will burn right through you :) .

But too bad, many people who saw it were bickering over historical technicalities.

Now back to the arms and armour -- I like the part when Balian duelled with the Muslim cavalier for possession of the black horse. The sword (forgive me, but I do not know the name of it) used by the Muslim cavalier looked like a very efficient slasher with a mean chop.

Now, the close-up of Salahuddin's helm was a bit of a disappointment to my novice eyes. Having seen some of the more ornate helms put on auction before, I thought it could have been finer. But then again, functional armour may not be as ornate as parade fineries.

Yeah, Ghassan Massoud was an excellent actor for this character I liked his stare when they were bombarding Jerusalem at night.

About that Duel in the beginning, that seemed so real! I felt that in any moment one of the actors might hit the other by mistake. I also noticed how 'wickedly' curved and pointed that saif was! It seems like an excellent slasher. I also noticed a very important thing, when that cavalier dismounted and started fighting balian on foot, before he started attacking, he had his forearm raised and his sword's spin over it, with the tip pointing down. Is that some sort of arabian swordsmanship?!

Well, i certainly can't speak from any point of expertise, but it is my understanding that the makers went to great lengths to make the film as historically accurate as possible. While promoting the film at the Ritz Carlton in Pasadena recently they even put on a morning seminar on the Crusades presented by Donald Spoto (The Hidden Jesus; A New Life), Hamid Dabashi (Islamic history scholar and Prof. at Columbia University) and Nancy Caciola (Midieval history Prof. at the University of California). I assume these folks were also consultants on the film along with many others. In the end though, it is just a movie and sometimes exact accuracy must be sacrificed to move the plot along. Seems silly to argue though since it is obviously meant as a fictionalized account.

Haven't seen the movie; haven't seen the duel, but it sounds like a posture seen with both European and Japanese swordfighting; it wouldn't surprise me if it's seen in between; the sword hand on high, the blade tip facing forward and down with the main cutting edge facing forward and up; a position good for the deadly downward behind the shield thrust into the chest/throat (especially with a curved blade), and from which a cut can be deployed more quickly than from the high-and-back position that guards your sword (as seen in earlier medieval European art, for instance), and also allows/implies the protective use of the blade. The sheild, or lacking one, left arm, deployed for parries, grappling, etc..........On the other hand, it's fairly typical for newer "Hollywood" type movies that the martial arts are flavor of the month of what's on the N American scene, regardless of relevance to the historical milieu depicted; thus we've had the 3 musketeers using rapiers as if they were daito, and the opposite ridiculousness in old historical dramas with the sheild held to the rear, and sword in front; MacBeth using his spatha like a smallsword......sounds like this movie promulgates the ignorant popular idea of curved Islamic swords, and the glimpses of the commercials I've had may bear that out? Nice to hear it's not an antiMuslim hatefest, though.

Sorry for interrupting, but I always thought that Salahadin's army was as unarabic as possible. Kurd commanding kipchaqs, circassians and some turks (after purging the army of africans).

It was also my understanding that the responsibility for training lied mostly on kipchaqs.

Nope, the Ayyubid family was kurdish, but the ayyubid armies were mainly Syrian and egyptian garrisons, no kipchaqs. The Kipchaqs and circassians came much later, during the mamluk period.

Who has commentary to distinguish Kurdish weaponry from Arab at the time? (I have no idea; heck, I don't know anything constructive about modern Kurdish edged weapons :( )
Even if Rivkin is incorrect about the more Northern peoples, it's certainly possible the curved swords are ethnically correct for some portion of the army, nor would it surprise me if there were some sabre type swords all along, as there more or less were in Europe, but if they are depicted as the dominant type, that seems incorrect to me. What of jambiya and its curvature? Some old swords we've discussed recently have rather jamiyesque handles, but straight blades..........How old is the (Eastern?) Afrasian simply curved two-edged dagger/sword? I don't seem to recall it from "classical antiquity?" (among Afrasians around the Mediterranean, though curved double-edgers are occasionally seen out of BCE Europe, and mainly I don't know what with nonmediterranean Afrasians; the more southern protoBerbers; Africa remains a dark continent in the same sense as the premedieval period was Europe's dark age; it has been hidden from us....archaeology has been making inroads in both.....)........random thoughts; seeem relevant somehow.....

First of all I apologize if my statements are going to be incorrect, and I truly hope to be corrected.

My understanding was that Saladin died in 1193, and by 1250-1260 Ayyubids were mostly outed by rebelling mameluks (which does not seem to be much later than Salahadin's reign) - who formed the next dynasty, Bahri (which was a kipchaq dynasty). During the reign of Saladin he, and his commanders were very often of kurdish origin, but the army was already predominantly mamluk, the practise which started basically in 10th century with black mamluks (Nubians etc.). I think 1169, the battle of Cairo is considered the foundation of mameluks as a cast - the black mameluks were slaughtered by the order of Salahadin, and replaced by "white" mameluks - Kipchaqs from northern Caucasus and surrounding steppes, Circassians and other northern tribes. Since then, "blacks" were barred from being mameluks.

In a translated Turkish book, edited by egyptian historians I have, Ive read that the purchase of mamluks didnt start by the Ayyubids until the reign of Al-Salih ibn Al-Kamil ibn Al-Adil ibn Salahuddin, Saladins great grandson, who widely introduced mamluks into military service and Khwarazmian cavalry after the defeat of the Khwarazmian Sultan by Gengiz Khan.

A few observations:

1) Saladin's helmet: Saladin was renouned and greatly respected for his humility and the simple life he lead. It therefore would be appropriate that his personal arms were simple and functional rather than austentatious.

2) Curved swords: in that period the swords used by the Muslim army were straight. Turkish curved swords came later (see below).

3) Mamluks: in Saladin's time the Muslim army was mainly composed of "Arabic" peoples, loosely defined -- Berbers, Arabs, probably Persians. The later Mamluks were Turkish slaves trained exclusively to fight, some say in emulation of the military monastic orders (never heard of the Nubian mamluks -- that is very interesting). Baibers, who finally drove the Europeans out of the Levant, was a Turk, but not a Kwarisman. The Kwarismanian turks were invited in to fight the Mongols, but got out of control and attacked Egypt and the Crusader states and were with difficulty defeated.

Errors and omissions are categorically denied, and if pointed out will be re-written to conform to the most recent with currrent official history, which itself will be rewritten or simply expunged to the extent that it varies from the canon noted above. Oink. :D

1. Humility?? I dont get it, what do you mean Mark?

2. Thats exactly what I was talking about on SFI, if you have the book "Islamic Swords and swordsmiths" see portraits 80,81,82,83. These are the swords of that time in Syria, but if you look closely at the swords in the movie (I watched it three times now :D ) some swords are straight, and some are curved sabers. Perhaps Ridley or his historical dept. wanted to show the transition from straight to curved swords during that period?? Anyway, I believe the swords in the movie were fine, at least none of those Sinbad scimitars!

3. You are absolutely correct, same thing in my book, during Baibar's time, the Khwarazmians he invited to stay in cairo and syria got out of control and started pillaging and burning the countryside, thus he had to send his personal Mamluk guards to stop the rebellion, they cut noses, tongues, ears and popped the eyes of the Khwarazmians to scare them into submission. I also never heard of Nubian Mamluks myself. The only Mamluks I heard of were Kipchaq Turks and then replaced by Circassians.

I meant that Saladin was respected not only because he kicked infidel butt, but also because he lead a simple life and did not create a cult of personality around himself as so many powerful rulers did (and still do). No harem, no huge ornate palace, no wild parties, no booze. I remember reading somewhere that he drank only water, and slept on a small cot or mat. Whether it was a put-on or not, it gave him a more spiritual air that was welcomed after the debauchery so common among the Egyptian (and probably other) Sultans. Hence he was seen not only as the restorer of Muslim power in the area, but of Islamic faith and culture in general.

Well yeah, he has no palaces in either Syria or Egyot that are attributed to him. Only a fortress in Northern Syria, and one in Egypt.

I've just seen Kingdom of Heaven as well. I enjoyed it. I agree there were errors, but I give Ridley Scott points for trying to be more accurate than his predecessors.

My understanding of Salahuddin's Armies is that the core would have been a mixture of Kurds, Turkish mamluks, Turcoman tribesmen, professional Turkish soldiers and Bedouin tribesmen. Something that didn't really come across in the film, where the 'Saracens' were represented as a fairly homogenous mass. However I feel that trying to explain the ethnic complexity of a Medieval Muslim Army to a modern multiplex audience would have been an instant 'turn-off'.

With regards to the use of Arabic by Salaheddin and his commanders, I believe that Salaheddin was a multilingual man: he would have spoken in Kurdish to his Kurdish troops, Turkish to his Turkish Emirs and Arabic to his Arab Imams and civil servants (who would have all been Syrian and Egyptian). But since the film was made in Arab country i think that is why he had to show Salaheddin speaking Arabic. To have him him speaking in Turkish or Kurdish, while more accurate, would have probably lead to effigies of Ridley Scott being burned on the streets of Cairo and Baghdad!

As for the armour and weapons, while some of it is anachronistic (the mail and plate armour worn by Alexander Siddiq looks 15th century rather than 12th) I give him credit for at least including genuine Islamic armour. In addition there is very little Islamic armour surviving from the 12th century anyway, so RS is entitled some artistic license. I also give him credit for having some of the Muslims wearing lamellar armour.

Overall I liked this film, it tried to stick to the main historical facts, although it did take liberties with the details, but that is unavoidable in a film.

K.O.H.
 

I just got back from viewing this film and the details that we notice will , of course go unnoticed by the uniniated .
I thought it was a terriffic film on the whole and despite the overabundance of Orlando Bloom these days , he did a workmanlike job in his role .

I thought the subject matter was handled quite well and equably ; I find Scott's films to be among the best cinematic offerings around these days .

I actually left the theater tired out by being swept up in the experience .

Can't wait for the DVD < rubs hands in anticipation > :D

I do not think that Saladin could speak Kurdish (although he was a kurd). His father died when he was in an early age, and he was sent from childhood to a Sunni Islamic religious school in Damascus. He lived all his life in Damascus, and died there. When I visited his tomb, I got goosebumps all along my spine, with a tingling feeling (unexplainable). He probably knew arabic and a little turkish (as turkish troops were gaining more attention rapidly in the region).

Actually, they say that the DVD will be 195 minutes long. Thats 50 minutes extra! I also had a feeling that there would be an extended DVD version since I got out of the cinema, because in the trailer, there were many scenes that werent shown in the movie.

Fifty more minutes ?!
Oboy !
< Rubs hands even harder>

I will bet you dollars to donuts that the first DVD of this film released will not be the extended version . :rolleyes:

I have been fooled a couple of times by this Hollywood distribution trick . :mad: