Tomas Aiala Cup hilt rapier.
 

Here some pic from a cup hilt rapier .
It has a long blade circa 104 cm and overall 121 cm
Blade marks : TOMAS in one side and AIALA in the other side.
Also there is on each side a “cross” stamped and other symbol too ,would like to know if it is only for decoration or there is any signification ..
Also I’m wondering if this sword could be late 17 th century or Early 18 th century ? Military or civilian use.

Any comment on it will be welcome .

Cerjak

more pics
 

more

Could that be a mark inh the ricasso, Jean-Luc ?


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Spanish colonial? The bars of the hilt brazed directly to the cup, the plainness of the piece and grooved horn grip, the simple, undecorated pommel and quillon ends and lack of a ridge along the cup guard all seem to point to a so-called 'Caribbean cuphilt type'. Just a guess, though and I'll let Fernando or others shine light on this one! In any case, a great dueling rapier!

Looks Iberian to me but ... what do i know ?
The brazed bars could only mean this is a Portuguese sword, according to the basics.
My doubt to define whether this is a civilian or a military sword goes for the knuckle guard being fixed by a screw, a military detail, and the fine long rapier blade, more a fencing weapon for a civilian.
But then, i may tend to the civilian version, as the screw fixation may also represent a late age for tyhe sword ... like beg. XVIII century.
But these are all conjectures; no authority here :o

Fernando

Here a close picture from the ricasso I don't think that it is a mark.

Best
CERJAK

I think Mark has good points on the character of the hilt with the manner of quillons attached to cup, and simplicity of the cup with raised ridge but no rompepuntas.
While this hilt has those characteristics suggesting colonial origin, the pommel seems of third quarter + classical 'urn' style. The knuckleguard screw into the pommel recalls English dragoon hilts of this period and earlier.

The blade seems to be of Solingen character of early 18th century versions of Aiala blades, and the 'anchor' seems to correspond somewhat to various examples on blades of these times. I believe that Germany began producing these rapier blades for Spanish colonial use in the 17th well into the 18th if I understand correctly.

With the combination of these, the more refined look of the grip, I would suggest this might be a Portuguese version of cuphilt for officers dress and of latter 18th.in present mounts using earlier Solingen Aiala blade. It seems that Portuguese cuphilts were with an almost colonial look were known if I recall earlier discussions correctly. The English associated elements bring to mind the various connections between Portugal and England in these times.

Well Cerjak,

It seems you got most of your answers, looking at the way the cup and the hilt is made, its form and symmetry I'm leaning towards 18th century....
Congratulations with this pure and original cup hilt rapier !

Kind regards

Ulfberth

Hello Jim

I was expected your opinion and I would like to thank you for your so well constructed analyse there is a last detail I would like to understand about the size who is about 120 cm in my eyes it is a lot for a dress sword it is difficult to wear it, may be you could explain me.
Best

Jean-Luc

You don't let this type of sword pend to the ground; its typical mode of scabbard holder together with your hand holding down the grip makes them go almost horizontal.
In any case, a sword with this length is not practical bor (military) battle but makes it good for (civilian/school) fencing; you intend to reach your adversary's body before he reaches yours.

Concerning this type of brazed quillons, pommel an cup looking Colonial, as i admited, i don't know. But that they make the Portuguese style, i make it certain.
Attached are two examples of such hilts, with and without knuckle guard screw, both with alegories to Portuguese Kings in their blades.


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Dear Fernando
Thank you for the pictures the first one is for me very similar from mine ( wooden handle and simple cup and quillons and same type of urn' style pommel only the knuckle guard screw .
Do you know from which period is the first hilt ?

Best

Jean-Luc

Allegedly XVIII century.

I would like to thank all of you ( Jim ,Fernando ,Mr ELEY & ulfberth, for your kind contribution on this thread.
I got all the explanation expected on this sword and I'm hope that those informations will be helpful for other collectors.

Cerjak

Hi Jean-Luc,
A real nice find, 'de Aiala' blades seem to be popping up all over :) Here's a Tomas de Aiala rapier courtesy of the Wallace Collection, a bit of a different class from ours :eek: :)
My Regards,
Norman.

Hi Norman

Thank you for the picture.
It is only in Museum you could see so nice example and based on this picture I can understand why his name had been popping all over .
Best

Jean-Luc

A rather beatiful sword indeed, however giving place to reiterate the dilemma of genuine smith signatures.
According to the host of this example, the mark stamped on the ricasso (quote) appears to represent the royal arms of France and not that usualy associated with Tomas de Aiala (or Ayala).
... Resulting that this sword could even be Italian, still according to Wallace specialists.

Yes, ambiguity seems to be a byword when it comes to arms and armour!!! :confused: :D

If I am not mistaken, a number of Milanese smiths worked in France, I think near Lyon but cannot recall exactly. Italians often used the Ayala name, much as did the German smiths into later times.

Still citing Sir James Mann, the Ayala name was frequently used as a kind of trade label, indicative of a certain type of blade, rather than any intention to deceive.

i read somewhere (probably here on the forum) that at the height of the rapier 'age' they reached somewhat ridiculous lengths in civilian circumstances, mostly for fashion as the wearer was not likely to engage in a real duel.

i also read that a city where this was happening was so annoyed by the lengths gentlemen were going to, they banned blades over a yard long, and anyone caught with a longer blade on entry thru the gates would have it's excess broken off.

what i gather is a typical rapier scabbard (repro) and associated belting and fittings. the carrier at the balance hangs from a hook/eyelet on your left, and has a further strap that hooks to another eyelet on your right. the sword hangs almost horizontally, in balance. i assume the extra strap keeps it at a better angle & from flopping about hitting others & provoking duels. it does NOT go around your butt, but runs forward across your front as in the 2nd photo;).

I wouldn't know about the fashion issue, but it was a vital advantage to have a longer reach than your adversary in a duel. There were indeed royal laws limiting the length of swords. King Dom João III, for one, allowed a maximum five and half palms ( some 120 cms.). Longer specimens were then called 'off mark', some of them reaching the seven palms.
Noteworthy the limit prescribed comprehended the whole sword; you could have a normal blade and a longer hilt, which would give the same effect.
One alternative to evade the law was to commission 'extendable' swords; you would go around with a legal weapon and only stretched it for a duel.
As then Monarchs considered themselves above the law, there is no surprise that, in the arms inventory of King Dom Pedro II, inherited from his father Dom João IV, it was listed an item called "sword that grows".

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key word i think being 'duel', an artificial rules bound form of lethal argument settling as opposed to actual melee battles between disciplined trained soldiers who need a sword capable of working at near and far ranges without getting stuck in an opponent due to over-penetration. military swords of the period were shorter, wider, and sharper, excepting possibly the nobility and officers who tended not to lead from the front. the ultimate rapier form, the smallsword was great for duels, but died out with the 18th century as they were not a good battle sword. the scots taught them that. george washinton i hear had a colchemarde smallsword but he carried a more practical spadroon or hanger in battle tho. doubt he ever used either to actually injure an opponent.

'rapier' is a term we now apply to similar weapons that like 'falcata' was not normally applied to by those who carried them in earnest. it's just a more convenient way of saying "long pointy stabby sword with a fancy loopy wire or cup) hand protector that doesn't cut very well but looks cool".

added:

there is also a practical limit on how long a blade you personally can carry & unsheath (and re-sheath), as well as a weight limit. most rapiers were 1.5 kilos-2kilos at most. much the same as earlier and later swords. you could of course carry a longer one on horseback, like an estoc - basically a backup lance.

found this elsewhere on a sword forum: probably what i was originally thinking of: the english wore rapiers much longer that the fashion in the rest of europe, thus the following.

spelling (and grammar) was an individual thing back then - no dictionaries of standardized spellings till the 17th c... spelling tests - another thing we can blame the english for.

(the 'legal limit was thus 40.5 inches of blade)

After measure conversions, conclusion is that both nations allowed an equivalent sword length ... let alone the Portuguese preventing foul play with the hilt size.
Here attached the first part of Dom João III law published in 1539, where can be read the part: quality and condition that be do not bring in my realms and estates sword longer than five palms of ell: entring in them the grip and the pommel

Also here attached a high quality seven palm sword from the beg. XVII century and a rare example of a stretchable sword, both in legal and ilegal attitude. It is dated around 1640 and has an inscription VIVA EL REY DE PORTUGAL.
(both belonging in the collection of Rainer Daehnhardt)

The thesis that too long swords are implausible because they can not be unsheathed and re-sheathed has also been discussed here but, if a trouble maker is decided to go exhibit his point of view carrying with him his advantage, that will not be an obstacle; he simply has to go for it with a naked sword, thus not needing to take along his page to unsheath it for him. Ethics and aestethics don't count much in such occasions.

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if you can parry and close with him a bit inside his point, he's dead. unless he has a parrying (main gauche) dagger on his off hand and you get TOO close. if you also have a left handed dagger, it turns into a nasty knife fight.

i got a good smack from my epee teacher in college when my practice opponent made a mistook and his blade was grabable with my left, so i did. i poked him with mine a few times while the instructor, a rather aged hungarian about 5 ft 2 in. tall and 80-something got into range and gave me a good one on the butt with his fencing sabre. it's apparently against the rules :D so is half-swording.ah, well... (he apparently got jumped by a few thugs one night on the subway going home thru the bronx in NYC. bad move. he put three in the hospital with his cane, he was small but all muscle and fast when he wanted to be.)

one of my favourite series was 'sharpe', i recall in the 'waterloo' episode one british cavalry officer commenting on french lancers that 'once you get past the point it's like killing rabbits'.

a similar instance early in ww1 saw a rare engagement between a british cavalry unit with swords and a similar sized german lancer unit actually charged each other. the brits had little trouble doing the rabbit thing and the german force retreated. the brits tried to cut them off but ran into a farmer's barbed wire fence and had to halt. a foreboding of things to come. one, if not the last, f the few actual cavalry engagements before the trenches and concertina'd barbed wire stopped all that noble stuff.

ps. - re the extensible sword, i had a vision of a few rubber bands between the hilt and the guard, you could hold the guard in your right hand and pull back on the hilt with the left, aim & let go. :) just don't miss :D

Salaams all~I spoted a very interesting website on the subject of these swords from the highly specialised metalurgical and scientific viewpoint on http://www.academia.edu/858988/Metal..._rapier_blades

There is an excellent section on blades with the correct blademarks but which are actually not of that maker...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams all~I spoted a very interesting website on the subject of these swords from the highly specialised metalurgical and scientific viewpoint on http://www.academia.edu/858988/Metal..._rapier_blades

There is an excellent section on blades with the correct blademarks but which are actually not of that maker.....

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

interesting article, thanks.

the use of different steels and iron in different areas of the blade and the conclusion that some 'toledo' marked blades were actually made in solingen was interesting too.

sadly, i was looking thru a new catalogue from a spanish supplier and they are now proudly listing a spanish cup hilt rapier with a toledo stainless steel blade. how far the mighty have fallen.

Much to the taste of those fans of replicas :rolleyes: :eek:

Thank you Nando!!! I had missed your response as I was caught up in the fascinating detour on fencing rules on blades etc , pretty intriguing to see how much regulation there really was concerning these swords.
Indeed, it does seem the Ayala name did become a sort of trademark as discussed with Andrea Ferara, Sahagum and others.
I wish we had as much recoded data on the use of these names and marks as we seem to have on all these regulations on lengths etc. :)

Ibrahiim, thank you for spotting this fascinating site you linked! You are always amazing finding these outstanding online resources!


All best regards,
Jim

Here is a comparison between a sword within mark and two examples off mark.
Says the author Eduardo Nobre that, while legal swords had five palms total length, these ilegal examples had seven palms of blade alone.
He proceeds saying that indeed their unsheathing and carrying around was rather problematic, besides the difficulty to fence with blades of such length, they managed to keep at distance the most adventurous adversary.

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Toledan legends
 

The fame of ancient Toledan steels was based on the mastership with which some smiths handled its temper, without any technical knowledge nor any instrument able to measure, even remotely, the adequate temperatures for such treatment. The temperature they knew it by the color of burning steel and the time of immersion in the water, by means of prayer, verses or songs allusive to the craft. People in general attributed such quality of steel to the water of the river Tagus, in which swords were tempered.

Toledo legends part II
 

Santiago de Palomares, author of the famous sword smiths nomina, also commissioned by King Carlos III in 1775 to create the Royal factory of swords in Toledo, left it written that, the steel that they spent in the fabrication of Toledan swords, since its beginning was that of the old factory of Modragon, unique in Spain at the time, celebrated in almost all world as rich and abounding and which swords, after some centuries, prevail today of quality so outstanding that they are appreciated by the major part of world nations for their strength, beauty and the finest temper.

Fernando, thank you so much for this exacting detail on the character of these weapons as well as the texture of their making and the atmosphere of the time. It is as always, colorfully described as you do masterfully, and makes me appreciate these all the more!!! (as if I could be any more obsessed with them!!!:)
Thank you,

Jim

Bravo, Fernando! I also wish to thank you on the dissertation of such magnificent blades! Just like Jim, I'm really taken in by these swords and their colorful history!

Toledo legends part III ... dedicated to Jim
 

According to the legend, the first tempered steels were developed by mere accident in Toledo, where the Royal Armoury was located in the middle ages. Based on a mix of cruelty and servility, the royal smith had the idea to pierce a prisioner of war (probably a Moor or a sympathizer), captured in the wars against Arab domination. Needless to say that such sword had been turned red hot, to commit the symbolic act, ritual death or blood baptism, the result being overpowering; the sword has hardened or TEMPERED, using the body of a man as cooling agent of the process. Facing the discovery and after the surprise, all nobility commissioned their Toledana, upon which they ran out of slaves for the sacrifice and, by disastrous analogy and enemy despise, slaves were replaced by deer who died in the process, tempering swords, until it occurred to someone that the issue of having to kill someone or some animal for the temper of steel would be a superstition ... and so proofed by doing it with water, or oil, achieving the same results, and so it is done until now in this west side of the planet.

To Jim and all Toledo and Alatriste admirers
 

Kind regards Ulfberth ....

Ah ... a sword (rapier) without scabbard but with suspension belt.
Are these interestingly genuine examples ... both sword and suspender ?
Maybe (at the least) the suspender ia a replica ?
The sword looks huge ... how long is it ?

Hi Fernando,

The belt was a gift and is obviously not an Original, it just ads to the scenario, like a temporary frame , a bit like the box for the pocket pistols.
I tried to duplicate the scene of the movie Alatriste, as you can see in the picture.
The Espada ropera is 122 CM long and Original in all parts.

kind regards

Ulfberth

Magnificent rapier Ufberth!!!! and in that setting superb!!!
I had not even known on this movie, "Alatriste" but now that I do I must have it:)
It doesn't matter that the suspension device is not original, it looks amazing with this piece. Anyone with a true passion for these rapiers would be smitten with this grouping!
Thank you for this.

All the best,
Jim