semi-dual edged badik?
 

Hi guys,

Another puzzling thing was this semi-dualled edge badek / badik (was it really a badik, after all?). I thought badek was always a single-edged weapon, but then I might be wrong.

The top edge was blunt actually, until it reaches its 3/4 length (from the bottom) then the sharp edge started till the tip.

No pamor traced. The hilt and scabbard were Bugis-like, but I really don't know it's rightful origin.

Any info / thoughts are welcomed.

Thanks

Hi Moshah,

I would call it a badik. Here one from my collection with a real double edge, very sharp. Do you have etched it? I've never seen a badik without pamor.

Regards,

Detlef

Hi detlef,

Yes indeed yours was also double-edged.

I was in the thinking that mine could be something from the Phillipines, as I never saw anything like this. Now I've seen yours and somewhere back I think Artzi has sold one of the likes (pix).

It was etched via the coconut juice way and I've failed to see any traces of pamor there on my piece.

Hello Moshah,

I believe your blade was made from wesi/besi malela (a heavily forged steel with often higher carbon content which yields the dark, even stain despite being laminated).

Your badik could well be from northern Malaya (not sure though).

Regards,
Kai

Hi Kai,

From my observation, the besi used was similar to the type that we always see in kerises. Perhaps no nickel contents, hence no pamor.

The characteristic of the besi was also akin to some Malay kerises that I have, made me so inclined to say it's a Malay badik. But from my understanding, Malay badiks usually will have a "mar" or "temin" - a round base before the tang (pix) which is not present on the badik of question here. This is why I was not prepare to expect that it was a Malay badik... :shrug:

Hi Kai,

if the blade was made with such besi with higher carbon contain, does it mean it can easily break? I've read somewhere stated that besi melela was actually comes from a sandy grains along the west coast of java. Is that true?

if not laminated, means that it was not done like how a keris should be?

Thanks for the input, kai. Really appreciate it... :)

Hello Moshah,

I wouldn't worry (unless one tries to abuse it as a sharpened pry bar); competent differential hardening can go a long way. If used incorrectly, the weak point (for most of the personal sidearms throughout the archipelago) would most likely be the hilt IMVHO.


I'm sure there were a lot of local sources; secondary iron deposits are not rare in wet climates.


These are laminated (on a microscopic level) and traditional. There may be some blades made from imported European steel hiding within the wesi/besi malela category but usually you will see some forging lines suggesting extensive local forge work regardless of the primary source.

Regards,
Kai

Thanks for the elaborated explanation Kai...

Hmm I'm really critical on this one as most badik I've seen were pamorred, at least slight pamor. This one was plain baja, but somehow the mid part looks like it was fullered, which is something i've never seen on a badik.

But then my biggest worry would be another kind of dagger / edged weapon "impersonated" to look like a badik... :shrug:

In Sajen's example, does anyone else see the possibility of a cut down pedang blade finding, perhaps, a second life as a badik?

It's maybe possible but I don't think so. Soon as I have better light I will post some pictures from the blade.

I think it is quite unlikely Detlef's was a cut down pedang, as the fuller length would not make any sense, to be that short a fuller for a longer blade.

Definitely there were traces of pamor as well, on detlef's badik.

Agree with you Moshah regarding the fuller.

The blade have a very fine pamor, unfortunately it's very dark etched so it's difficult to see.

Hello Moshah,

Don't worry - this seems to be a rare and genuine variant: I have another one and with at least 3 extant examples this makes a pattern (rather than a headache ;) ). If the N Malay attribution can be confirmed, this might be a local style. As already suggested, it clearly shows heavy Bugis influence. However, the blade is always broad, flat with a wide and shallow central fuller, has a partial edge at the back of the blade, and is made from besi malela. The blade has enough strength for stabbing as well as cutting and is very quick/agile due to its low weight. I believe the stronger material makes this configuration feasible. It's well possible that the looks of European sabres influenced the blade profile; however, all 3 pieces seem to be locally crafted on purpose, not recycled from broken swords.

The typical Bugis badik from Sulawesi tends to have either a relatively narrow blade optimized for stabbing or a blade with fat belly adding more meat towards the tip for slashing moves. Both types tend to have a fairly thick back of the blade (as usual for most SE Asian daggers). I have seen several with partial back edge like in Detlef's example though. Some appear to be recycled pedang/etc. blades but quite a few are obviously intentional designs like already pointed out for Detlef's badik.

Moshah, could you please post a pic of its scabbard? I'll try to come up with pics of mine, too.

Regards,
Kai

Hello Moshah,

I'd be inclined to place those pieces with integral bolster into the large sewar/sewaih family (including tumbok lada, karih, etc.). This family of blades seems to have Sumatran/Straits roots rather than the badik probably originating from S Sulawesi.

As you know, not that long ago, people used to freely move back and forth between Sumatra and W Malaysia.

Regards,
Kai

Dear Kai,

Of course we still could not confirm the origin of the blade, as much as I would really love to have it labelled "made in N.Malayan" as that would explain much on the absence of pamor material.

The dress (pix attached) were bona-fide Bugis. Albeit being newly made (which would lessen the inclination of possibility that it comes from there), the overall image has the Bugis look into them, and so does the blade. If it was a conformed Bugis' badik, I think it is quite "obscene" for it not to have any pamor. Perhaps, made for the peasant...

Of course, I am speaking with my limited knowledge in Badik, Bugis arms and socioculture, and limited experience too...:(

Hello Moshah,

Can't you get back to the seller and try to inquire? Also where the scabbard was made (and possibly wether the replacement was done based on an existing but broken one coming with the badik)? Does the hilt look older?


I don't think we can base assumptions on any newly made scabbard. Minor sidenote: the wood of the stem looks N Malay to me FWIW...


Considering that the badik took the place of the keris as personal companion or alter ego in Bugis society, one would believe that there should be a good reason (i. e. adat & hormat) for anything relating to a badik. Hopefully, our few Bugis members could elaborate on the presence of wesi malela in S Sulawesi and what it might signify?


The scabbard on the example sold by Artzi is definitely not Sulawesi nor is mine; its ivory buntut also doesn't suggest that this piece was just a low-end version. The hilt on my piece does show the "multicolored" wood typically favored by N Malays, too.

Regards,
Kai

I always be extra careful on whatever the local seller will tell me. Not that I am so skeptical about them, but most of the time you either get a purported fairytale or misleading info. In this case, I do not think the seller would have much to say about it. However I think the scabbard and hilt would be a local commissioned, and look new even to untrained eyes.



Definitely, Kai, even with antique scabbard a closer look on the fitment is essential before one can say it's a real package. Many people travel around the globe and mix-marriage wherever they settled down, and I believe that also would happen to sheathed weapons of the old days... :D



Really? I thought the scabbard and hilt of the one sold by Artzi was a Bugis one...However Artzi's example was the closest to my badik's design @ dhapur, and I would love to know from where it comes from...

BTW, would love to see your badik as well, Kai.. :)

it safely arrives...
 

Hi guys,

Received it today, safely.

I would say the hilt and sheath looks decently new - not a slight of dark, blackish hue that usually takes place on antique hilts. Unless it was clean thoroughly, I stand to be corrected. On the other hand, they were made out of nice wood plot and of a considerable good workmanship, it seems.

Apparently the shallow fuller can be clearly seen, as the slight concave runs from the first inch of the base, straight (and tapered) to the tip. The partial double-edge started a little bit further from the mid blade towards the tip.

The blade was really smooth to the touch. As I ran my finger along the blade from the base towards the tip through the mid-section, the feel was almost velvety. I know some Malay keris with this same attributes and it is locally coined as "besi baldu" - means velvety iron. Perhaps the absence of pamor contributes to this feel but I do have few non-pamorred kerises, and it feel nothing like this. Except one, old Sumatran / Palembang sepokal which shares this sensation of touch...

Kai, I've tried to ask the seller from where it comes from but as I've predicted - to no avail.

So guys, is the blade a Bugis, a Malay or perhaps a Sumatran?

We're still in the grey, are we?

BTW Kai, does this badik resembles that one of yours?

This is also a Peninsular piece which in Kelantan is usually called a "badik Bugis" ie. Bugis style, to distinguish it from the more typical Malay badik which have the mar.

BTW the piece pictured in post #5 is a typical Kelantan style badik and looks like a nice one. Good ones are hard to find. If you have the scabbard I'd love to see it.

Also, the piece in post #3 now belongs to me. Such double edged blades are almost certainly a European influence adopted from Western military style blades.

Hi Dave,

Seeing one without pamor make me think it is a Malayan all right, but with limited knowledge I can't bring myself to jump into conclusion in the very beginning. Some more I failed to see (google..sic..) a Bugis badik without a pamor, which adds to the skepticism. But when the item reached my hand, I think the quality of the besi baja would justify the absence of pamor, and the fuller started one inch after the base of the hilt, not right through (which would indicate a pedang reborned in its second life as a badik). So then I believe it is all right a badik.

Then your input and Kai's make me believe now that it is a Kelantanese / N.Malayan. Good lord!

I've heard that Kelantanese refers to these kind as "bodek" or "pisau bugis"...and the one with the "mar" was a "badik". Since Kelantan and Pattani generally have their own keris and weaponology culture that is unique to itself, I think their badik is their badik and that's that. But definitely the similarities to the sewar's family was there, indeed.


I am afraid that I do not have the picture of the scabbard, as this badik was not mine....:shrug:
However I know the owner and would be happy to tell you who is it, if you really want to know. He's quite a figure in the Kelantan keris scene...


OMG there's come the trouble :eek: Well, sorry but I have credited Artzi for it beforehand, because I don't know of the nice badik's whereabout already... :)

For a Peninsular piece, we hardly get to see any of the likes around so much. Not even here in Malaysia. Were the Kelantanese of the old days are more keen on the badiks with the "mar" type (i.e badik sepat etc) so that they did not make much of badiks with the design like yours and mine?

This is what I meant. The first box from left indicates the fuller starts, and the second box was the start of the partial edge, and the fuller still continues till half an inch before the tip.

..anyway the scabbard for that badik would look like this example, as I recollected. Is this a typical Kelantanese badik sheath?

I guess the badik here is Kelantanese as well, with a mysterious kuningan that looks like a mixture of swassa in the pamor. But I though swassa or any other alloy couldn't mix up with the besi baja, so I really don't know what it is...

That's some great looking horn on that last one Moshah, especially the color of the hilt. :)


Cheers, - Thor

Thanks, Thor...but I believe it ain't a horn.

It is a sea ivory. See the dotted line on the pix below. Over here in Malaysia, I think it is not a common material for badik hilt. That's an observation, based on what I've seen, but still I haven't see a lot of things...

And it's aged well...ah, the sin of the heart... :)

Beautiful badik! :) And I can only repeat what I have written in your other thread.

Regards,

Detlef

Interesting. When you say 'sea ivory' which species are you exactly referring to? I am not familiar with any marine ivory both displaying lamellar growth like that, and at the same time showing cracks along the axis shown above. Then again, there's probably a lot of sea mammals whose teeth I haven't seen myself - especially tropical ones.

I know that 'dots in a row' in ivory, is sometimes associated with hippo tusks and their inner interstitial zone (TIZ), but the TIZ wouldn't take the direction shown in a cross section like the one above, unless your badik is very small. How long is the hilt btw?

From the picture above, I would still bet on blonde horn - unless you are sure that it is definitely tooth. In that case, it would be interesting to see a macro straight on the very end, as well as one perpendicular to the length of the hilt.

Sorry for the long ramble - nerding ivory is kindof what I do. :D

Sweet looking badik regardless!


All the best, - Thor

Hello Thor, you know what I would say!? :) ;) :D

Hahaha, I do, I do - but hear me out bro! :D If you look at the dots going across the bottom of the hilt, I just can't see any way that you can align this row with the TIZ running lengthwise along the inside of the tusk? Unless the above hilt is only like 3 - 4 cm long, the direction doesn't fit.

It's totally different from the badik hilt you posted recently. In yours the hilt aligns up nicely with the curve of a hippopotamus tusk and also remember - I agreed with you on that one! ;) :D

Maybe Moshah can enlighten us? What he think it is? And how long is the hilt?

The real problem over here is that people are referring to sea ivory as "gigi" (i.e tooth), hence the better understanding and futher classification of sea ivory was somewhat fall short, because of the generalization of terming that has become a common practice around...



The "dots in a row" was my ultimate indicator of a sea ivory, but again I am not so sure on rhino or hippo horns. The hilt was not big, about 5.8cm long...


Blonde horn? You mean, hippo?
Attached were a series of pictures, where I believe would assist you in the further effort of it's ID. In the first pix I've highlighted the dots on the bottom and on the surface of the hilt, for easier identification.

Don't be, Thor, as what you do is something that I would like to do as well!
:)

Thanks, Detlef.

Perhaps I would own as good & as much as yours, one day... :D

Damn, that's some strange stuff.... With the last photo, I must admit, that I am not able to ID it as being anything other than hippopotamus ivory. Maybe we are indeed looking at the very core of the tusk in cross section, when viewing your hilt from the pommel end. The layers and angle of the line of spots certainly fits...
That would mean that the hollow canal along the tusk core has been completely crushed by the dentine and now totally reduced to these little pin-prick impurities (spots in a row) we see. That's something I've never seen before, but then again freak incidents happen all the time in nature. -perhaps it happens once a hippo grows old enough, as the dentine layers keep packing on...?

Would be interesting to see a series of tusk cross sections lined up according to the age of the source animal.


Mosha, don't worry about what people call it. I deal with it on a regular basis too. Common people rarely know the exact scientific names of what they have. Unfortunately popular names are the scourge of useful investigation. :)

In regards to your question. Horn is for instance what cattle, antilopes and rhinoceros grow. They are composed of keratin - the same materials that make up hair, claws and nails.

Teeth are made up of dentine and enamel. The males (in most cases) of certain species of animals grow a particular set of large teeth made for combat - actual or ritual/demonstration - to determine their position in the group and predator deterrence (same thing as the above animals use their horn for). For example Elephant, narwhal and hippo. These particular teeth we call tusks.


Getting back to your badik. Do you know if the hilt has attained this color by handling over time (patina) or has it been dyed in tea or another substance? Tea dying of ivory is something I would really like to learn more about. I myself, am a sucker for the warmer, more amber colors of ivory. - your's above is delicious! :)

Thanks for the extra pics, they were very illuminating!


All the best, - Thor

Oh yeah, and Detlef - that makes two! ;) :D

...when we get to three I'll bake you a cake when we meet sometime! :p

Thank's! :D

Agree with you, the colour is beautiful. Maybe is was dyed originally but I think it's also with a very good age. :)

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Thor. Is the TIZ only appears on hippo tusk? If it was unique to hippo ivory alone, I think that was one easy determinant, providing that the hilt exposed good side of the cross-sectional plane. On kerises hilt, that could be tricky...


Well I've heard about this practice too. But did it not that tea dyeing would usually turns up with a straight brownish hue on any surface the dipping takes place? Or if the whole hilt was totally submerged, you will get an even dyed tone, all over the hilt?

I think the badik hilt in question here has turned brownish / golden on the area where the finger or palm would be placed. Noted the uneven slight yellowish that appears on some spot, vertically.

I has one keris hilt with a suspected tea-dyeing treatment, where a straight line of golden tone was present, as if the hilt was partially submerged, heads up. Will post the pix later.


Thanks Thor for enlighten me up in this segment...it is not easy to pick up and tell this-and-that ivory on the go, but with your knowledge and input I think we should be able to do that soon :D

Hi Mosha! Here it is the combination of the visible laminar build-up of dentine in combination with the dots in an angled row. These two combinations lead me to believe that we are dealing with hippo ivory. I will never give a statement in certainty about these things, unless I have the piece in hand. I generally advise anybody being cautious when performing an identification and never to do it based on a sole character trait alone. I've personally seen other ivory species which show either similar dots or similar laminations. With the two characters being present here together, i.e. the laminations and the dots, my belief is strong that it is indeed hippo ivory.

I asked a colleague today btw, if he knew whether hippo tusks grow continually through the life of the animal and even though he wasn't sure, he pointed out a supporting fact that I hadn't considered: When the hippopotamus closes it mouth, the apical surface of the tusks in the lower jaw grind against those of the tusks in the upper jaw, perpetually wearing down the tusks from the distal end. This taken into consideration, it would make highly sense for the tusks to keep on growing and renewing throughout the life of the animal.

I found a picture of a hippo skull where you can maybe get an idea of the tusks grinding against eachother:

Here is the standard reference picture for a hippo tusk in cross section. Normally you would see a straight line of dots appearing in an ivory piece that has been cut from lengthwise down along the left and right borders of the TIZ.

If hippo tusks indeed grow throughout the life of the animal, my guess is that your piece came from an old hippo where the continuous addition of the lamellar dentine layers over time has completely "crushed" the TIZ and reduced it to the series of dots we see from the pommel end. Notice how the angle of dots in your hilt approximately fits with the shape of the TIZ? The picture also clearly shows the laminations.

It could also just be a freak - a deviation from the norm, where an animal has been born without a prominent TIZ. I don't know - but now I'm certainly dead curious to find out! :D

Regarding the tea staining, I'm sorry but can't answer you. I don't know anything about it but would love to learn more! Where was it done, how exactly, how culturally widespread, since when, etc. I just know I like the color. :)


All the best, - Thor

Well Thor I think that when you compared the TIZ pix with the badik's hilt, definitely you've got it right.

However some of my kerises hilts were also producing the similar tiny dots over the TIz. Then would it be a hippo tusks as well? Generally it was touted as "sea ivory" over here, and the main indicator is the tiny dots along the TIZ, if that was ever the TIZ.

Was marine ivory (walrus, sperm whale etc) doesn't have TIZ?