Kris question to the knowledgeables
 

Hi all,

While working with a Philippino Smith over the net on a contemporary project for a kris (don't crucify me :) ) I was told that the sides of the guard have meanings.
This is a detail of my old piece (in the sense of ancient)

http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/Im...ails_small.jpg

and I would appreciate if you gentlemen could enlighten me on the meanings of what I call lattice work in the right and the left side of the flaring of the blade. I'm most curious to learn as I am aware they have meanings.

On the other hand, when the picture is reversed,

http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/Im...ls-1_small.jpg

It appears to me that the right side has somehow the sape of an elephant? but also of the same type of basic shape a kukhri has.

Your detailed information would certainly teach me more things.

Also, is the origin of the Kris has been established? Indonesia or Philippines? Who influenced who? Is it essentially a Muslim sword?

Thank you all :)
Will retire for the night now.
Best regards,

Antonio

Not sure if a shot wasn't taken at answering this because a search probably would have gone over the same questions regarding the Moro kris.
Here is a great history site.
http://www.sabrizain.demon.co.uk/malaya/johor.htm

Very informative site, Mabagani, thanks. :)

But I'm confused: it doesn't really seem to answer any of Antonio's questions. :confused:

As for the origins of the kris or precusor from keris to kris, I've written my opinions on previous threads. I put the link because Mindanao and Sulu royals trace their heritage to this region Johore, Melaka and Sumatra. The history site of Malaysia and Indonesia gives an overview during the 15th and 16th centuries and their connection and cause for migration from the Johore area to Brunei, Mindanao and Sulu. I'd still stand by my statements that the "archaic" kris changed from the keris during the reign of Sultan Kudrat and his father of Mindanao in the early to mid 17th century when the various sultanates unified in their struggle against foreign aggression and a symbolic form of the kris was created to indicate their relation to other Islamic Malay Sultanates. The kris transitions from dagger to sword when the Mindanao and Sulu sultanates continued to remain unconquered, therefore furthering the evolution from keris to kris. This would have been the same period when the major groups the Maranao, Maguindanao and Tausug showed their unification and made their forms of the kris yet kept their stylistic forms found in the trunk section which showed their specific point of origin. This is IMHO, search my threads again for references.

Thank you for the clarification. I've been a spectator in the various threads you've referenced, so I'm at least minimally aware of how this discussion has evolved.

I'm still a bit confused, and I've sent you a PM.

Hi Mabagani,

Thanks for the link and the rest.
I humbly think that information scattered on threads could be organized so as to better be acessed by everyone.
I wouldn't mind host it if necessary. The point is that my time is not that much concerning seeking all threads and reading them all at this point.

I also have received some pages from Cato's book.

Thanks :)

Some of my writings regarding the timeline run contrary to the author cited but I've substantiated my statements in various threads.

Too much information!
 

Since no one seemed to be inclined to answer the basic question posed -- do the patterns on a kris have a particular meaning, and if so, what is it? -- I tried following Mabagani's suggestion to search past threads.

Unfortunately, so much has been written on this forum (and the old UBB forum) on kris that there are literally thousands of posts to wade through. I am pretty well trained in key-word searching (being a lawyer and all), but this is one bit of information that you can't easily zero in on with key word searching. I could not even find a thread specifically on the topic of these patterns, for instance.

Can't one of our numerous kris experts here take a minute to teach us ignorant ones? :)

Mark

PS: One thing that I remember being written by our Malay keris experts is that the pattern described as similar to that of a kukri may have had (at least in keris) a similar meaning -- i.e., that of the Shiva Linga or Shiva's Trident -- and that the little curl is indeed representative of an elephant's trunk. Perhaps a "keris guy" could comment on the similar features in the Moro kris?

I do not have the answer but I did remember that Fredrico's site has the names in the major dialects. Perhaps these can send the search in the right direction. Those terms are here

http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...o/diagram.html

This is something I am also very interested in. I have noticed that the number of projections on the elephant structure (gajah) varies between keris. I was wondering about the numerology involved. Has it got something to do with rank/class? For example look at this Gajah from an ebay keris a while back. I think its a good example.

The elephant and snake/dragon are connected with indra which shows us the keris Vedic origins. The Keris blade is described in terms of a snake in motion or a snake in meditation depending if it is straight or not. Note that the Keris also represent Heaven and earth. The keris also is/was given offerings to insure it held its power. The snake and elephant can also be seen on Tibetan Phurbas, ancient Indian daggers and Keris (note the Indian influence in all). Indera was the god worshiped by the ancient Warriors of India. The whole thing points towards a strong Indian influence in keris. Also note that the first Keris in Indonesia appeared with the coming of Indian rule.
The Keris has its origins in ancient India, it represents the mystically charged thunder bolt weapon held by Indera.

"Indra is the chief deity and the god of war and rain, the greatest concerns of the people at that time. He separated the heavens and the earth by defeating Vrtra, a snake-dragon representation of chaos and obstacles. Another Vedic myth describes his defeat of Vrtra using wind and a thunderbolt as his weapons, enabling the monsoon rains to end. Indra must be strengthened with the drink soma, provided by worshippers, to accomplish this task. "

http://www.religionfacts.com/hinduis...vedic_gods.htm

I think that the reason no one wants to wade into this one is that frankly, no one really knows these answers for sure. We can certainly make a lot of guesses and who knows, they might be right, but much of this stuff is just lost information. There have been many in the more recent keris mysticism movement who will claim knowledge to the specific meaning of these parts and if you want you can take their word for it. If it has that symbolic meaning to them today then it is certainly true....for them. I have heard a number of things in regards to the "ron do", those curls on the top of the tail area and the greneng that follows behind it. One is that it is symbolic of writing and is an actual prayer. This seems to be harder to apply to the filings on Moro kris, especially later ones where these marks do not look all that much like writing to me. The figure common on the gandik side is most probably meant as an elephant, perhaps Ganesha, though of course, in Indo keris there are many variations that include Singo, Naga and human figures. Most of the Moro kris seem more elephant like, but i have an old Sulu piece that i would swear is a naga form.

I believe that left and right flanks of the keris represent order and chaos (elephant/indra and dragon/Vrtra) actually I have heard people referring to the structure opposite from the elephant as the dragon. What is interesting though is the specific numerology of these components.

Edited your photo to explain the idea :)

Now that I understand the question better (I think :o ) there are certainly talismanic properties to the animal heads, like the elephant that I have seen on many Tausug kris at the base, or like the one you posted which I would say is Maranao looking and more of an eagle. I also agree that there may be a Vedic/Indic origin for the elephant whose meaning goes might be traced back to the Majapahit era (and Indian trade). The eagle may also be similar, like symbolizing originally Garuda, although now perhaps more for the sea eagle in the Philippines. My speculations at present. ;)

Thanks keris "knowledgeables" for your insights, I asked on a previous thread for keris experts opinions on the relationships of the different Malay Sultanate keris.
The kris forms vary from elephant, snake, serpent, naga, dragon, crocodile, sarimanok, eagle, parrot and other birds, etc. all motifs specific or mythological.
Pusaka pointed out many of the early Indian/Hindu connections, which raises the question did the keris arrive in Mindanao and Sulu earlier than the Malay Muslim missionaries. A study of the language, beliefs and history show the Hindu culture in the Philippines centuries before Islam so why not the keris? Maybe some answers are in the study of the earlier culture and some more prior interrelated with the coming of Islam.
An example of the early Hindu connection show on the Maranao kris which resemble an elephant on one side vs. the serpent/bird and serpent, the Maranao were the last to convert to Islam and still held to many early beliefs.
I've seen the Sulu kris vary from naga to bird possibly also indicating they may have been made in different periods.

This is exactly what i mean. I don't believe you will find any basis for these ideas in any ancient writings and in all probability none of this was intented in the origin of the keris......However, like any system this does not make it invalid if it works for you within the context of the system. Many interesting ideas will no doubt come out of our silat friends on this subject, but we need to keep in mind that these ideas are relatively new and probably have nothing what-so-ever to do with the origins of the keris form. But if it works for you, run with it. ;)

Whats that smell? Fantasy :D sorry

Indra holding two wavy blade daggers which will later be developed into the Keris we all know today. The Keris has its roots in Vedic India and has nothing to do with Islam ;)

Although the roots come from an earlier period the kris sword has its origins with Islam. This partly explains why when the archaic kris formed there were variations in the trunk/naga/bird motif while there was uniformity in the sword shape as it transitions from keris to kris.

I totally disagree that the keris is an Islamic weapon. All the evidence points towards Vedic India and none of it points toward Islam. If it really was introduced into Indonesia with the coming of Islam then show us the proof of those statements. Show us the wavy blade weapon in its native country before it was introduced. Such wavy blade weapons existed in Vedic times in India and that’s where it came from.


People try and say that Silat is an Islamic Martial art too when it actually existed in Indonesia LONG before the coming of Islam as did the keris. I say the same if Silat is really an Islamic martial art then lets see it in its native country, dose it exist there, no. So what dose that tell you???

Pusaka , I believe that Mabagani is referring to the KRIS *sword* of the Muslim Philippines .

Here we spell the two forms differently .

Pusaka, it would do you well to stop....breathe....read.....and comprehend what someone has said before you respond. :)
Mabagani is referring to the Moro KRIS, not the Indonesian KERIS, when he speaks of Islamic roots in it's development. I don't think anyone here would argue that the keris did not exist in pre-Islamic Indonesia.
The weapon which started this thread is a Moro KRIS. At this forum we tend to distinguish between this and it's Indonesian cousin through spelling differences. The Indonesian KERIS dagger and the Moro KRIS sword.
BTW, a wavy blade does not a keris make. The blades Indra holds in the pic you posted do not have the characteristics that make a blade a keris. Actually the first keris were, indeed, straight blades, so this pic really proves nothing.
I must confess, i really don't know enough about silat to be too sure of it's origins, but it has been my understanding that it is a relatively recent form. Can you show any ancient accounts to prove otherwise. I know plenty of modern Wiccans who like to think they are practicing the "old religion" when it is basically the invention of Gerald Gardner (also an avid keris collector) in the early 20thC. And Rosicrusions love to point to their ancient Egyptian heritage when their lodges probably developed out of 18thC mystical thinking and masonry. So do we have any real evidence that Silat is more than a couple of hundred years old?

Not much to add, I agree with Mabagani's points (whats new).

Though I would add, to add even more confusion to the mix (again whats new), there is a strong possibility that meaning has changed over time. Eg. when the keris first began to shift into the kris perhaps there was one meaning (eg. elephant and dragon), but in later kris perhaps the meaning has changed. Particularly since there are many forms of fretwork that are not dragon-esque or curly or etc...

I’m sorry If I misunderstood what was being said but I have to say that I have heard people say that the Indonesian Keris is an Islamic Weapon too, so I was eager to clear that up because I really don’t believe that.

About Silat its not recent but If you want to discuss that I don’t think this is the correct place to do that. There are lots of Martial arts forums where you could do that, I think you may know of one :)

If you take everything into account you will now see that the Keris blade symbolises the interaction of two opposite forces, the creative and destructive, the Male and Female,
The blade waves back and forth between these two opposite poles a bit like a battle taking place one trying to overcome the other. This is what my research has lead me to personally believe but I accept that lots has been lost over time. If anyone else has any other Idea about what it symbolically represents I would love to hear it.

Yes its meaning has changed from what it was originally meant to convey but I was talking more about it original meaning. Actually I’m not sure changed is the correct word, I would say lost.

No problem Pusaka, your insights regarding the keris are enlightening and help me with perspective.

We all know the martial arts originated with the homosapiens domination over the neanderthal or was that alien intervention too.lol

btw who practices any form of silat here? i for one.

I just need to point out again Pusaka, that the original keris form is NOT the wavy blade of which you speak, but a straight one. In fact most keris are straight (perhaps 2 in 3), so this back and forth dualist explanation doesn't really fly.
I think that as long as you are tying the keris and it's origins in with silat then this a a very appropriate place to discuss the origins of silat. I personally think the keris is much older than silat and that forms of keris fighting that are taught in silat are relatively new. So i wonder if there is any written evidence (old manuals, mention in old texts, etc.) that can make the connection between silat and the keris in ancient times.

Some Silat historians make the connection by citing ancient ruins with warrior carvings and fighting postures, also ancient tales about origins of combat forms. I'll have to read more carefully again for specifics about the keris and silat. Some of the carvings look like a straight edged weapons btw, early keris?

Well, i'd have to see the carvings. There certainly are a whole lote of straight edged weapons out there. ;) Can you suggest a place to see photographs of these carvings or possibly post some?

I like the book by O'ong Maryono, "Pencak Silat in the Indonesian archipelago".

Thanks, i've seen that book for sale, i'll have to look into it. :)

One other thing I would like to draw your attention to is that the Keris handle although it has been defaced it still has the original symbolic meaning, A man slightly bent over, hands resting on his stomach in meditation.

There are myriad styles of ukiran ; I don't think this theory really holds water .

This form that you refer to is called Jawa Demam or fevered man .
What does this have to do with the original topic we are discussing here anyway ?

Let's get back on that topic , shall we .

THE QUESTION IS WHICH CAME FIRST THE KERIS OR THE KRIS, I THINK THE KERIS! THEN THE LARGER FORM KRIS EVOLVED FROM IT. DID IT EVOLVE TO A LARGER SIZE IN THE PHILIPPINES BEFORE THE ADVENT OF ISLAM OR AFTER.
I WOULD GUESS THE KRIS WAS THERE BEFORE ISLAM AS THE TAILSMAN CARVINGS ARE UNLIKE ANYTHING FOUND WHERE ISLAM STARTED AND THE BELIEFS WOULD BE UNLIKELY TO HAVE BEEN APPROVED BY THE RELIGION. THE PEOPLE WHO CONVERTED TO ISLAM WOULD HAVE KEPT SOME OF THEIR TRADITIONS ALTHOUGH THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN MODIFIED BY THE NEW RELIGION AND LOST MANY OF THE MEANINGS THROUGH TIME.

AS IN MOST OCEANIC SOCIETYS THERE WERE PROBABLY VERY FEW IRON OR STEEL TOOLS OR WEAPONS IN THE PHILIPPINES BEFORE THE COMING OF THE HINDU ,ISLAM, CHRISTIAN SPANISH AND AMERICAN POWERS. ONLY THE TOP MEN IN AREAS WHERE FORIGN TRADERS CAME WERE LIKELY TO HAVE HAD THEM.
I SUSPECT THE MEANING OF THE ELEPHANT TRUNK AND OTHER CARVINGS WOULD BE MORE EASILY UNDERSTOOD BY GROUPS WHO HAVE NOT CHANGED RELIGION, CUSTOMS OR LIFE STYLE IF ANY SUCH GROUP EXHISTS. I DO THINK THAT THE HINDU BELIEFS AND ANSWERS PREDATE THE FULL DEVELOPMENT OF THE KRIS AND WOULD HAVE BEEN LOST UNDER THE RULES OF ISLAM. THE WAY OF MAKEING KRIS WOULD HAVE CONTINUED AS THAT WAS THE TRADITIONAL WAY THEY HAD ALWAYS BEEN MADE AND WHAT MADE THEM SUCH GOOD WEAPONS. I HAVE ALSO NOTICED SOME DAYAK SWORDS RESEMBLE SOME USED BY THE NAGA TRIBES IN INDIA AND BURMA SO INFLUENCE DEFINITELY CAME INTO THE REGION AT A EARLY TIME.

DISCLAIMER (THESE ARE JUST MY THOUGHTS ON IT WITH NO HARD FACTS TO BACK IT UP BUT IT SEEMS LIKE THE LOGICAL WAY FOR THINGS TO HAVE HAPPENED.) MENTIONING ONE RELIGION IS RISKY AND I HAVE MENTIONED THREE :eek: I HOPE NO ONE TAKES OFFENCE AS NONE IS INTENDED.

Not necessarily, the Moros practiced what was called "folk" Islam, meaning they intertwined early beliefs.
I'd agree the keris arrived in Philippines before Islam but not the kris, if it were true your timeline brings origins back a couple of centuries to before the mid 15th century? If I recall in a previous thread its rare or even unproven to find keris dated that early?
Eastern thought holds that true knowledge remains flexible, so I'll keep an open mind on this subject even if they don't fit into my own observations. It would be difficult to prove many of these opinions with concrete evidence like one would want, so many of the opinions are as good as any. Like you mentioned religion and faith can get sticky.
I've put out much of my ideas regarding the kris in this forum waiting to see how the next publication would mesh with my own study.

Some meaning on Javanese Keris' Ricikan
 

Hi all,
First of all, I have to admit that I'm not an expert on Sundang (or anything else, I believe :) ), and I don't have all the answer.
Just as Mr Antonio Cejunior said, the Ricikan (or 'lattice work' :) ) have meanings, at least in Java. I don't know whether this philosphical meanings may apply to other blades from other region like Bali, Bugis, Malay or Moro. But since many experts believe that keris' origin was from Java and spread-out to archipelago when Majapahit kingdom reign (ca. 12/13 C.), it might be helpful to study the Javanese keris, as an aid to understand the meaning of the form, in this case, the lattice work.

Secondly, I have to warn all of the forumities that these kind of meanings are very subjectives, and may change from time-to-time, even from person-to-person, as 'pusaka' is always a private matters. This meaning usually passed by orally from generation to generation, so a good-old literature may not exist. The oldest reliable literature about the meaning of ricikan/dhapur keris is Serat Centhini, written ca. early 19 C. Other was written by Prince Karanggayam, ca. 16 C., but it's authenticity/reliability is questioned. So, the meaning I propose here is "as told by" the elders, and may not apply to as far as Majapahit era. Tracing the real meaning of it in Majapahit era could be very hard, if not impossible, since no reliable written evidence known about it exist.

Now about the ricikans :
The Elephant's trunk look-alike (pics.3 by Mr. Pusaka) called "sekar kacang" (sekar=flower, kacang=peanuts) or telale gajah (elephant's trunk). It's curled shape symbolize humble and man's obligation to worship The Almighty. Other non-curled shape called "Sekar Kacang Pogok" (broken) symbolize "dignity/proudness" and reserved for upper rank/class, as in dhapur Pasopati. The Upper class is (surely) expected to show their dignity and authorities to keep the obedience from his community, and thus, may maintain order.

The Jalu Memet (Jalu=taji=cockspur, memet=hidden) is the thorn-like protruding in the 'armpit' of Sekar Kacang (in the 3rd pics posted by Pusaka). Symbolize "the man cockspur" (just see it inside your brief, :D ). It should keep hidden, and use it in "the right way at the right place and in the right time" (with the right partner, indeed). The teaching behind it may go on and on.

The thorn-like protruding below the Jalu Memet called "lambe gajah" (lambe=bibir=lips). It symbolize the mouth, the teaching is simple : "watch your mouth/words"

Now the other side.. The Greneng (the lattice works on the right part of 1st pics by Mr. Antonio).

The Greneng consist of several ricikans :

The very first, single thorn, (just after the blade meets the ganja/crosspiece, pics. 1) called "thingil", means small things, symbolize as it means, the teaching is 'do not ignore the small/trivial things, keep the open and keen mind'
Pair of thorn just after the thingil called "ri pandan" = pandanus thorn. I don't know what it's meaning, yet :(

Just after the ri pandan, came the "W" shape (or "M", if the tip pointed down) called "ron dha". It resembles the "dha" characters in javanese 'font'. Just after 1st ron dha, came the ri pandan again, then the ron dha again, then double thorn of "kanyut" resembling the "Ma" characters (some book may define Kanyut as a curled-tail ganja). The double "ron dha" assembly called "greneng sungsun"=double/stacked greneng. All characters could be read as "dhadha ma". Serat Centhini interpret this as "The Death (MAti) is came from/inside your chest (DHADHA)" According to Garret and Solyom, Yosopangarso (elder brother of Empu Djeno, the son of Empu Supowinangun) interpret it as "My Chest likes thunder." Other elders interpret it as "Lapang Dada", means patience/tolerance. The "Greneng" word itself means grumble/complaining.
The whole assembly than could be interpreted as 'Live your life with spirit and patience, do not ignore the small things and do not grumble/complaining about your fate. We all will die after all"

Javanese culture is a very unique. When new culture/value came, they may 'reinterpret' their existing culture according to the new culture rather then completly changing their customs. Thus, the old art/culture may still being kept, but with new "interpretation", as in wayang, keris and other cultural ceremonies.

Wish may help.

Best Regards,

Boedhi Adhitya

I think the Keris is older then the kris. Perhaps the Keris shape influenced the shaping of native long bladed bush knives so that gradually they developed and took on a more keris like appearance. I think that they are probably pre Islamic also. The general symbolism would be the same though.

I think many of the vedic symbolisms involved with the keris are touch upon in this article http://www.yoga-age.com/articles/lightonvrtra.html

You will often hear people say that a Keris should have an odd number of luk to be considered as a good keris. If you ask them why, they most certainly don’t know why.
If we count the number of luk on the side of Indra we will see that there is more then on the side of Vrtra. Symbolically it represents that the Keris is a good keris as Indra has won the battle over Vrtra.The right hand side aspects (good) win over the left hand aspects (evil). If the number of lux was even this would not be the case and the keris would then be considered a bad keris.