Whistlinbill's Collection #1: Kris
 

I expect that most younger collectors, at least those in the USA, will have heard those of us with graying hair speak of times past when ethnographic arms and armour were cheap and abundant, showing up regularly at local gun shows, and consisting largely of 'orphaned' soldier and tourist bring-backs. In those times, the ethnographic arms collector likely had only one reference - Stone's Glossary.

I have received a CD of photos of one collection built up over the past forty years by a member new to these forums, but not to the world of edged weapons. The user name, whistlinbill, substitutes for a name many would recognize as an author in the field whose works we have relied upon and I suspect that will be revealed in due course.

There are dozens of group photos on the CD which, rather than to put out all at once as an overwhelming bolus, I will trickle out in a hope of maximizing comment and discussion.

Maranao ? :shrug: , I like the multiple fullers on the left hand example; not to mention the sepokal-like curve to the blade; wonder if that one might be Sulu ... :confused: .

Nice start . :)

ALWAYS A PLEASURE TO LOOK AT NICE KRIS :)
AT FIRST GLANCE A NOVICE MIGHT CONSIDER THESE 5 EXAMPLES TO BE MUCH ALIKE. BUT ON CLOSER OBSERVATION THERE ARE A LOT OF VARIABLES REPRESENTED HERE.
FROM THE TOP DOWN,4 EXAMPLES HAVE COCATOOA POMELS AND M5 HAS A HORSEHOOF POMMEL.
M3 AND M4 HAVE METAL COLLARS BETWEEN THE POMMEL AND GRIP IS THIS A MARANO FEATURE?.
M1 AND M5 HAVE ROUND GRIPS WHILE M2,M3,M4 HAVE ROUGHLY RETANGULAR GRIPS.
M3, M4, M5 HAVE METAL FERRULES THE OTHER 2 DO NOT.
M5 STILL HAS 2 BACA BACA STRAPS, M2 HAS ONE BACA BACA AND EITHER A WIRE OR FIBER STRAP.
ALL KRIS APEAR TO HAVE SEPARATE GAURD OR GANJA.
THE FILE WORK ON THE GAURD SIDE (GANGYA) THOUGH SIMULAR IS A BIT DIFFERENT ON EACH KRIS M5 BEING THE MOST ELABORATE.
THE OTHER SIDE (GANGYA, SAME NAME) HAS WHAT IS OFTEN REFERRED TO AS THE ELEPHANTS HEAD AND THE CURLED PART BEING THE TRUNK. THERE IS QUITE A VARIATY OF FORM AND WORKMANSHIP SHOWN HERE. I OFTEN WONDER IF THERE IS ANY RELATION IN THIS DESIGN TO THE VERY SIMPLE BY COMPARISON KAUDI IN KUKRI FROM NEPAL AND INDIA. ?
THE BLADES M1 AND M5 STRAIGHT I LIKE THE FULLERS AND DECORATIONS ON THESE TWO BLADES. THE OTHER THREE M2 FULL WAVED BLADE, M3 HALF WAVED HALF STRAIGHT AND M4 PERHAPS 1 THIRD WAVED.
PERHAPS SOMEONE NEW TO THE MORO KRIS CAN LEARN FROM SUCH SIMPLE OBSERVATIONS. SORRY TO RAMBLE ON BUT I JUST COULDN'T SAY COOL AND LEAVE IT AT THAT. :D
I LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING SOME MORE OF THESE BEAUTYS. :)

beautiful krisses! these are the ones that worn daily by the common man. really like those ones with rattan grips

Rick, thanks for your kind comments!
Bill Adams

Very nice krisses! :) Have they sheaths?
Like the M1 with the fullers and the last one even if it not so old.

Regards,

Detlef

D'you suppose we could call this featurless Kakatua pommel unique to the Maranao group ?

Hi Rick,

I don't think that this are all Maranao kris. The "M" staying for Moro. Try to download the picture and you will see. :) I think the most are Maguindanao.

Regards,

Detlef

I agree with Sajen - most are Maguindanao. Interesting set.

Okay, so they are Maguindanao; I always get them confused .. :o
The question remains the same just change the name . :shrug:

Hi Rick,

can't answer your question but one of my Maguindanao kris have as well a this featurless Kakatua pommel, look here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12825

Regards,

Detlef

Gentlemen, thank you for your expertise! When I was collecting, about the only thing I could tell was: "Is this one any different from the rest of the
crop?" And, if it was, and the price wasn't unreasonable, I'd usually jump.
Nowadays, you aficionados know not only what island the sword came from, but which SIDE of the island! I take my hat off to you!
Thanks again,
Bill

Then I guess we could be heading in this direction then .
Maguindanao type/style kakatua ? :shrug:

I don't know exactly but someone confirm this in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=maguindanao Look post #16.

I have done some research and have seen that they (the Maguindanao kris) come with all sort of pommel. Maybe some of our knowledge members can tell more? :shrug:

Here some more pictures of Mag. kris with this pommel style taken from old threads. The last two seems to be an older style.

Regards,

Detlef

The very last one I would say is Maranao. Very close in style to Maguindanao and they are locally next to each other on Mindanao.

The third one may be Sulu.

The top 2 are Maguindanao.........

Hello Jose,

do you able to tell something about the hilt question? The last one was identified in the given link/thread as Maranao blade with Maguindanao hilt/pommel.

Regards,

Detlef

Is there a typology present as regards this style of kakatua pommel ?
Can we assign this form as seen to a particular group ?

I am looking at the blade not the hilt. The hilt I have even seen on Sulu pieces. ON the blade I am looking at primarily the front of the ganga area. You can check Cato for some of these, and I make the distinction between Maranao and Maguindanao.

There are other things on hilts that can help, especially the okir/okkil work done that can distinguish tribal areas.

Yo Rick, i see what you're saying... Here the thing tho; i gave up classifying krises to a certain tribe. I'm not saying totally, since there are distnct styles indigenous to a certain tribe, especially later. For instance, the last kris on the right is distinctly sulu. But see now, we're running into whether it's Sama or Tausug. If it's Sama, then which one? Then we see all these blades that contradict what's on Cato's book. So to classify that we say, it's traded
. Really? How 'bout the possibility that a certain panday moving to a certain locale?
Here's another situation: a certain Iranun approached a maranao panday to make him a kris. Question is, would the panday forge the blade based on how he was taught, or would he conform according to a supposedly a iranun style? Just something to chew on...
With that said, the pommel style you're inquiring about, Rick, if we still have to go by Cato's book, can also be seen in Sulu.
My .02 centavos

Thanks for the input, Ron .
I see your point . :)

Lots of trade - a good point. Thats why we see a mix of styles on some pieces and it gets confusing. Something Cato does not mention. I have a little more faith in some classification than Ron, but what he says is also true.

A most interesting discussion, thank you all. Here is the next installment:

ooh, whistlin', you need to take off that red rust on the first kris. that's painful to look at...

Without reading your comment I have had exactly the same thought.

Whistlinbill please care this blade or send it to me, I would be more than happy to do this job! ;)

M6 and M7 are very nice krisses but both need care at the blades and sheaths.

Regards,

Detlef

Be nice!
 

I should like to suggest to participants that admonishments about condition and care of presented artifacts are best handled by private message.

Sorry, don't want to attack someone! :)

just a knee jerk reaction, lee, especially to an object that has cultural significance to some of us

Red rust and a red face....
 

Gentlemen, I apologize for the red rust! The collection has been sitting in my basement (dehumidifier going all the time) for the better part of the past ten
years. I pulled the boxes out and gave them to my old art director, Terry Moss, with the marching orders: "Shoot 'em like they are". Which he did.
So, I reckon I sorta got caught with my pants down--well, the rust is hangin' out, anyway!

Somebody asked about sheaths--seems like most of these have sheaths, but
Terry shot 'em without so he could get more knives into a picture. And, best
I recall, the sheaths are mostly plain, with either rattan or metal bands.
Thanks for your understanding--I'll try to do better in the future!
Bill

M6 is a very interesting sword; most likely pretty early .
Sulu, I should think .

Here is its brother with a different pommel . :)

http://www.arscives.com/historysteel...1/160-rb3a.jpg

I dunno about "brother" Rick. I see a vast amount of difference between these two blades, from the greneng to the luks and flow of the blade. M6 is more slender and serpentine to my eye. Yours also has details like the line which almost forms something akin to a tikel alis and that other incised line that profiles the length of the blade. These are perhaps both Sulu, but i think they are from different periods with M6 being perhaps the older example. :shrug:

continuing...

No interest? No comments?

M9 KNOTWORK ON GRIP AND SCABBARD IN NAUTICAL STYLE NOT OLD TRIBAL FORM OF WORK. UNUSUALLY LONG METAL FERRULE SHOWING MAKES ONE WONDER IF THE ENTIRE HANDLE IS NOT COVERED IN METAL UNDER THE WRAP. NICE FILE WORK ON THE BLADE.PERHAPS NOT THE ORIGINAL HANDLE.

M10 NICE ALL ORIGINAL KRIS AND SCABBARD WITH CLOTH (ANTING ANTING)? A CLOSE UP OF THE PATTERN OF THE CLOTH MAY SHED MORE LIGHT ON ITS TRIBE AND ORIGION AS IT APPEARS TO BE TRIBAL MADE CLOTH AND PATTERN.

M11 STRIKES ME AS NON MORO LIKELY VISIAN INSURECTION PERIOD, UNUSUAL SCABBARD FORM ESPECIALLY THE TIP.

M33 RATHER CRUDE FILE WORK ON BELALAI GANJAH, UNUSUAL FORM OF WRANGKA (TOP OF SCABBARD) AND WHAT HAS BEEN DONE TO THE SCABBARD TIP? MOP (MOTHER OF PEARL) ON HORSEHOOF POMMEL LIKE THAT SEEN AROUND ZAMBOANGA IN MINDANAO.

M34 GOOD PATINA TO POMMEL GOOD QUALITY SILVER FITTINGS , MISSING BACA BACA WHAT APPEARS TO BE A VERY INTERESTING PATTERN TO THE BLADE, OR IS IT RUST STAINS? PICTURES MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO TELL.
I AM GLAD TO SEE YOU DIG THESE OUT, PART OF THE JOY OF COLLECTING IS HANDELING, DISPLAYING AND GIVING THESE ITEMS THE CARE THEY DESERVE. IT IS SORT OF LIKE PAINTING A OLD FADED FLAKEY HOUSE YOU CAN EASILY SEE AND APPRECIATE THE RESULTS OF YOUR WORK WHEN ITS DONE. I THINK I ENJOY RESCURING AN OLD ITEM IN NEED OF TLC (TENDER LOVING CARE)OVER BUYING A PERFECT RESTORED ITEM. THE RESULTS WHEN THE JOB IS DONE AND THE ITEM LOOKS GOOD AND CARED FOR AGAIN IS ITS OWN REWARD. :)

Very well said! :)

Some more explanatory notes:

M9 and M10 seems to my eyes Maranao blades. And agree with Barry that M10 that it is a very nice original kris with the anting anting cloth.

M11 isn't a kris and Barry may be correct that it is a Visayan blade. (look also this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14751)

M33 don't have a seperate gangya and is IMHO a WWII area kris with a typical sheath from this time.

M34 is IMHO a Maguindanao blade.

Regards,

Detlef

It has been very nice for Bill to share a lot of pieces from his collection and I have enjoyed the variety and it has been fun to know these have been gun show pick up's for the most part over the years. I'm hoping he'll do an Asian one featuring Burmese/Thai, Tibetan and Chinese.

I second that! :) Thank you so much for sharing your fantastic collection, Whistlinbill! Thank you to Lee as well for posting! Many of these so far are not my area, so I do not comment, but I do very much appreciate! Thank you again!!!

You have just seen the tip of this iceberg thus far and these types are yet to come. A number of the photos have 'outliers' such as M11 and require breaking up in the photo editor for presentation in these themed threads.

That is fantastic Lee! One, it provides a wonderful photo archive on this website for future collectors to study and enjoy and two it provides such a wide assortment of items for all of us to enjoy. I have really enjoyed and appreciated Bill's willingness to share his collection!

Just to add my appreciation for these posts. I am sure at some point kaskara, takouba and other weapons more in my area will be posted and I will be able to add comments of some substance at that point. :)

In anticipation, I should add that I have particularly enjoyed the exceptionally clear photography!