Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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B.I 20th July 2005 05:26 PM

Islamic Crossbow?
 
i am trying to look into the crossbow in medieval and post medieval islamic culture. there are 3 examples known, 'believed' to be islamic. these are almost exactly like the german wood/ivory examples of the 15thC, with a slight styling of the ivory which hints at islamic influence.

is anyone aware of any reference, whether text or image that can validate the existance of this weapon in islamic hands, in any country influenced by islamic culture?

would greatly appreciate any input.

Jens Nordlunde 20th July 2005 05:40 PM

Hi Brian,

I think I have seen a crossbow on an Indian painting - I will have to have a look.

Jens

B.I 20th July 2005 06:05 PM

thanks jens, any help would be greatly appreciated. sculpture or text especially, or persian islamic painting. unfortunately indian painting only flourished after the moghuls, with the very occasional early example being crude and normally not of use.
however, even if it is moghul or post moghul, at least it shows the idea was adapted.
ideally, i am after pre 16thC islam, whether indian, persian, turkish etc. a written accout would be excellent.

Rivkin 20th July 2005 06:12 PM

Ofcoarse:
"The Mamluks in Egyptian politics and society" edited by Thomas Philipp and Ulrich Haarmann
"Studies on the Mamluks of Egypt" David Ayalon

As far as I remember in the first book there is an article on mamluk theology. As I remember Mamluks used "arab" bows (standard bows), "turkish" bows (long, heavy arrows) and "persian" bows (crossbows, or "foot-activated bows"). The latter ones were extremely popular, however there was a theologic problem - nowadays forgotten sunna about Mohammed supervising his troops and saying "why are you using persian swords and bows ? You should use only arab weapons !". The solution was found in stating that he meant that one should not use the weapon of kafir, for persians at the time were kafir.

Since turks and persians converted you can use their weapons, but you can't use firearms for they are "christian sunna" (Ayalon quotes the last speach of Tuman-Bey in which he accuses ottoman in violating this law by using "christian sunna" - guns).

B.I 20th July 2005 06:20 PM

thank you krill, thats wonderful.
do you have these books and can you quote the phrase. if this isnt possible, do remember which book mentioned the crossbow and i will find it and source the quote myself.
much appreciated.

B.I 20th July 2005 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin
Since turks and persians converted you can use their weapons, but you can't use firearms for they are "christian sunna" (Ayalon quotes the last speach of Tuman-Bey in which he accuses ottoman in violating this law by using "christian sunna" - guns).

very interesting. i am not familiar with 'christian sunna' and its meaning.
the firearms theology i am aware of.
its a strange concept, that if you cut off someones head, the body still remains 'whole' as in, it still exists in the material world, even if in two pieces.
but, firearms cause the body to be partially destroyed when meeting their maker, and so you are undoing what your deity has created.
very strange.

fernando 20th July 2005 10:51 PM

Sorry if this is nonsense ...
What about the muslim crossbow being of portuguese ( or partly ) influence ?
By the time Afonso de Albuquerque defeated and practically controlled all the sea and coast, from the straight of Ormuz, all India west coast, down to Malaca,( around 1505 ), he personnaly took it as a modernity that all the archers from his fleet used the crossbow, while João de Barros and others from the period, quoted that, muslims and turks were armed with normal bows, some of them very powerfull and sofisticated.
At least several crossbows were left back or captured during the inumerous battles ... this could be a start, like other known cases of invader/defender influence on altering or adopting eachother's weapons.
If this is a plausible possibility, i can translate a few historical quotations, added by pictures.

Rivkin 20th July 2005 11:54 PM

1. "Christian sunna" (also known as "hadith of kafirs") is when someone does not follow the islamic tradition - for example erects statues (like spanish umayads) or in opinion of some uses paper money (rather than bimetallic islamic currency system). Handguns were considered "christian sunna" in an extremely orthodox (and in the same time extremely unislamic) mamluk society, i.e. they were considered a chirstian novelty that is prohibited for proper muslims (source - Ayalon quotation of Tuman bey's speach).

2. I'll find this article, but it will probably take some time - I'll have to check out the books from the library, and right now I'm on a little bit tight schedule.

3. As far as I remember the decision of qadis that permitted the use of crossbow was made during the rulership or Calawun, (14th century) or somewhere in this range of time, centuries before the establishment of a portuguese base in Oman. The problem is that crossbow is nearly always referred in islamic sources as a "bow", the paper makes the point in emphasizing that it's (as far as I remember) sometimes is called a "persian bow" or "the bow where string is drawn with the foot". The size of these bows is reported to be completely enormous - elite, extremely strong mamluks were rumored (according to the paper, that I'll dig up :)) to use bolts that weighted up to a few dozen pounds and more.

Rivkin 21st July 2005 12:27 AM

Ok, here are two books that should mention islamic crossbows:
Boas, Adrian J. (1999). Crusader Archeology. New York: Routledge.
Burke, Edmund. (1957). The History of Archery. New York: William Morrow and Company.

B.I 21st July 2005 01:09 AM

1 Attachment(s)
thank you krill.
i will chase these books down. is this from memory or do they definately mention the crossbow. a bow pulled by the foot is enough for me but it must be pre 1500.
jens,
i just bumbled across this image from a moghul painting circa 1570. too late for my needs but interesting all the same.

Rather 21st July 2005 11:45 AM

As far as I remember, the crossbow was a weapon typically used by townspeople or on ships. It was much less effective in open ground battle, as the firing rate is much slower (5 to 6 times) compared to a bow. Furthermore, it can’t be used by cavalry, due to the difficult loading procedure. So, if your are looking for such a weapon in the Islamic armies, I suggest to look into the Naval warfare or check areas, where towns were under the thread of siege. Good luck! ;)

Jens Nordlunde 21st July 2005 02:48 PM

Sorry I must have seen the crossbow in a book other than in my own. I have however found something else in Elgood’s Hindu Arms and Ritual.

Page 51. ‘Kautilya’s text as it has reached us with its insertions of identerminate date describes stone-throwing machines and we know from Muslim sources of manjaniqs, maghribis, arradahs and gigant crossbows called charkhs which were used in siege operations (see Toy, Sidney: The Strongholds of India. London 1957)’. And at the bottom of the page. ‘Ferishta is probably reliable when he reports that 5000 Hindus were slain when Muslim cannon fired ‘bags of copper miney’ at point-blank range at the advancing Hindu army during the battle of Talikota in 1565. He also refers to the Hindu use of ‘vast flights of rockets’. Probably rocket throwers, Takhsh-andaz, were carried into battle in howdahs together with grenade throwers, r’ad-andaz, in the army of Sultan Mahmud when he fought Timur at Delhi in 1398, but takhsh can mean a crossbow or an arrow.

See also the Glossary page 249 and 257.

Rivkin 22nd July 2005 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I
thank you krill.
i will chase these books down. is this from memory or do they definately mention the crossbow. a bow pulled by the foot is enough for me but it must be pre 1500.
jens,
i just bumbled across this image from a moghul painting circa 1570. too late for my needs but interesting all the same.

It's from memory, but "The History of Archery" I think certainly mentions the development of islamic crossbow (here my memory becomes vague - was it turks or persian who introduced it). As strange as it sounds they used it against very heavily armored enemies. As far as I remember old turkish shooting style (khazars etc.) very often required archers to dismount even when shooting with bows. Concerning ships, arabs, mamluks and early turks were not very profficient of famous for using them. Navy service was too often dispised and was not considered a "mainstream" career, therefore I (well I'm way too ignorant) don't know of a single famous "mamluk navy" manual.

Tim Simmons 24th July 2005 11:20 AM

Some how I do not think this is what you had in mind, it is a trifle 'ethnographic'. The crossbow was and might still be in use in Malaya. Tim
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/B1.jpg

B.I 24th July 2005 12:17 PM

krill,
thanks for your input. i will check all the sources you have mentioned. i have access to libraries other than my own although i doubt i will find some of the books you mentioned. i will pursue them anyway.
jens,
thanks for the links you sent me, which show the development in china and surrounding countries.
tim,
great picture :) i'd like to imagine a walled garrison to the right, out of shot but think it may be some unfortunate bird who's in for a bit of a shock.

i think what i am looking for is a way to suppress the doubt, academically, that crossbows were made and used by islamic forces pre 1500. the ones i am refering to are too close in construction to german pieces which infuses doubt that they were made by an islamic hand, as apposed to being adapted for use, or made by europeans in islamic countries and pulling in certain artistic traits.
so, i suppose i need the definate period mentions that krill hinted at, maybe in a muslim manual, or sculpture. i do really appreciate everyone help and am sure the truth can be revealed eventually.

fernando 24th July 2005 12:50 PM

In this site you can read some parts relative to Rivkin's quoting Mohamed comdemning the use of non arab ( persian ) crossbows.http://www.jamiat.org.za/isinfo/fes_celebrate.html

B.I 24th July 2005 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando
In this site you can read some parts relative to Rivkin's quoting Mohamed comdemning the use of non arab ( persian ) crossbows.http://www.jamiat.org.za/isinfo/fes_celebrate.html


thank you fernando. although this steps into religion and mythology, it is still a dated mention of a weapon that could be the crossbow. i can use this, as this information will be passed on to someone (invloved with me) who will try and re-translate this quote, to verify that it is indeed a crossbow, and not a bow. much appreciated.
what i need is also an image, preferable in sculpture that will show the crossbow being used at the time in question. :)

fernando 24th July 2005 02:37 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Furthermore, it can’t be used by cavalry, due to the difficult loading procedure. So, if your are looking for such a weapon in the Islamic armies, I suggest to look into the Naval warfare or check areas, where towns were under the thread of siege.
Crossbows, if i learnt it right, since its inventing by the chinese, took all forms of dimensions and uses, from bolt to clay or iron bullit throwers, from siege giants to "small" hunting arms. Also its adoption was much spread within time and regions, not meaning they prevailed with those that originaly adopted it, or if those adopters were the whole of part of a determined race, islamic or other.
The portuguese XV chronicles are univocal at quoting that the local warriors ( along all that coast ) used normal bows, against the portuguese archers crossbows ( no translation problems ). This not meaning that all peoples of India were never familiar to the crossbow, nor that it was of portuguese invention or even of portuguese production ( plenty and good ones were german ).
On the other hand, crossbows were also in cavalry. As an example, King Dom Sebastião ( 1557 ) fought the Moors in Alcacer Kibir with a personal Horse Guard of crossbow archers. There are examples left.
However three centuries before, by the time of christian reconquery (1139-1263 ), the moor armies fighting the portuguese, already had the crossbow in regular weaponry. The "Cauçalarab", depicted in figure 85, was very light and quick to remount. Although it had less penetration power, it came to be adopted by the christians.
Just a pitty is only a drawing and not a picture or a sculpture, to be a solid example of islamic pre-XV century crossbow presence.

B.I 24th July 2005 03:37 PM

hi fernando,
i am not sure what it is you have attached. are these line drawings taken from something else and to what date?
the crossbow i am looking for is of german design, except the style of the ivory fittings, which is islamic in form. the definate presence and use during this period is a good start for me.
thank you for your efforts and please expand more as to where the information came from. modern (post 1500 :) ) depictions are useful, if included with reference that i can backtrack.
thanks again.

Aqtai 24th July 2005 04:09 PM

I used to have G. rex Smith's "Medieval Muslim Horsemanship: A Fourteenth-Century Arabic Cavalry Manual", now long lost. I'm sure one of the pictures was of a mamluk using a crossbow.

RSWORD 24th July 2005 04:18 PM

Brian

One avenue to consider is the archaeological evidence. This past March at the Timonium show one of our presentors was an archaeologist working in Israel. She shared pictures of one of their work sites which was a 13th century walled forte that was embodied by the Europeans. Many interesting items turned up but specifically in regards to what you were looking at were a large number of crossbow bolts of various sizes. There were also a large number of various size stone cannon ball. The evidence suggested the forte was definitely under attack as they found skeletons with sword and bolt injuries and they even found a horse skeleton with bolt still in the bone. Given the various size bolt, they must have had crossbow from handheld to a wheeled type to shoot massive bolts. Matter of fact, as I recall, they had several Crusader fortes under dig and were finding a lot of archaeological evidence to suggest the crossbow was in strong use in the 13th century. It doesn't help with what the bow itself looked like but it is strong evidence of their use.

Rivkin 24th July 2005 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aqtai
I used to have G. rex Smith's "Medieval Muslim Horsemanship: A Fourteenth-Century Arabic Cavalry Manual", now long lost. I'm sure one of the pictures was of a mamluk using a crossbow.

It's basically the same as Rabie blah-blag Training bla-h bla-h Mamluk Faris,
and I think it's the same text that was quoted in David Nicolle's mamluks (unofortunately my library does not have this book).

Ok, if it's important I can get most of the books I quoted in my library.

B.I 24th July 2005 04:38 PM

hi aqtai,
i have found a copy of this book and will look into it. do you remember the nature of the image, ie were they modern depictions, or period manuscripts?
rick,
unfortunately, any archeology evidence from crusader sites may yield crossbow bolts, but from which side? i know the europeans had crossbows, and i have no doubt the muslims may have used captured weapons, if they were an 'advanced' technology that they deemed useful.
however, i am after a crossbow definately made by a muslim hand. the examples in existence are of complete form, but the speculation and debate is whether they were made by muslims, of just a variation of the german design.
still much appreciated and please carry on :)

B.I 24th July 2005 04:56 PM

2 Attachment(s)
2 examples of 15thC european crossbows, both in italy (not in the same place). these are of the type i am looking for. the differences between the 'islamic' and the european are very minor, and just in the style of fittings.

B.I 24th July 2005 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin
Ok, if it's important I can get most of the books I quoted in my library.

its important to me and i would greatly appreciate any help you can give. its not just a general enquiry, and the results (if any definate ones occur) will go towards publication. it is for this reason that i am trying to push this past speculation.
thanks again.

Aqtai 24th July 2005 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I
hi aqtai,
i have found a copy of this book and will look into it. do you remember the nature of the image, ie were they modern depictions, or period manuscripts?
rick,
unfortunately, any archeology evidence from crusader sites may yield crossbow bolts, but from which side? i know the europeans had crossbows, and i have no doubt the muslims may have used captured weapons, if they were an 'advanced' technology that they deemed useful.
however, i am after a crossbow definately made by a muslim hand. the examples in existence are of complete form, but the speculation and debate is whether they were made by muslims, of just a variation of the german design.
still much appreciated and please carry on :)

I no longer have this book, but I do vaguely remember a picture of a mamluk with a crossbow. The picture, if it exists, is a late 14th century Egyptian (?) miniature painting.

B.I 24th July 2005 05:58 PM

thanks aqtai,
if this is the case then this is exactly what i am looking for. i will chase this book down and let you know.

Marc 24th July 2005 07:43 PM

Ok, I’m a bit short of time, so, I apologize for “sniping” like this, but I thought that some of these things might be of interest…


In Spain there's documentation about the use of the crossbow by Moorish forces from at least the 13th c.
From that age, in the Cantigas de Alfonso X can be seen contingents of Muslims accompanied by crossbowmen, especially in sieges. It can be argumented, tough, that at that time in Spain (to make a short story of it) wasn't unusual to hire groups of armed men to join one's armies, regardless of their faith, as long as they were going to be reliable. So, Moorish troops could be found in Christian armies, and Christian men in Moorish armies. At that period, also, one would have a hard time to distinguish Moorish from Christian warriors by their panoply, defensive or offensive, alone. Especially in border territories. Sorry, I haven't been able to find online images from the Cantigas that showed the crossbows. But I think it’s something worth mentioning.
From a bit later, we have the frescoes found in the Torre de las Damas (“Tower of the Dames”, in the Partal House, The Alhambra, Granada), from about 1350, and where an army in the march is represented and mounted crossbowmen in Moorish outfit can be seen.

As told by himself, at 1238, while besieging the city of València, then in Muslim hands, King Jaume I of Aragon is hit in the forehead by a crossbow bolt that goes through his helmet and wounds him. The King grabs the bolt, pulls it out, rises in his stirrups and shouts angrily to the city walls in front of his astonished court. Then goes back to his army’s camp, rides around a bit, wiping the blood that falls from his face, to let his men know for sure he’s ok (morale being important in these feudal armies), and then retires to his tent where he spends some days with an horrible headache.

At the other side of the Mediterranean, we have a treatise from 1180 written by Al-Tartusi (I think that in Alexandria) for Saladdin, where, among other weapons and engines, crossbows (yes, the hand-held variety) are discussed. This was, for example, prior to the use of the stirrup, IIRC.

On the other hand, at 1199, King Richard the Lionheart is killed at Acre by a crossbow bolt.

There’s a Nasrid crossbow (sorry, I don’t know the exact attributed date, but the Nasrid dynasty spans from 1231 to 1492) in Granada’s Archaeological Museum (a couple of references here and here )


Some information, including iconography (although quite badly reproduced), about the use of the crossbow in Al-Andalus and the bit about the Cantigas can be found in the book:
SOLER DEL CAMPO, Álvaro. "La evolución del armamento medieval en el reino Castellan-Leonés y Al-Andalus (Siglos XII-XIV)", Ed. by Servicio de Publicaciones del E.M.E, Madrid, 1993.
It's out of stock, right now, but it can be found via interlibrary loan.

More interesting, being in English, would be:
NICOLLE, David. "Early Islamic Arms and Armour", Ed. by Instituto de Estudios sobre armas antiguas, Consejo Superior de Investigaciones Científicas, Madrid(?), 1976. Also out of stock, I’m afraid.

Finally, and knowing you have access to someone who can read Spanish, I think you might find this reference of the utmost interest…


I hope this helps, somewhat. Again, sorry for not elaborating.

B.I 24th July 2005 11:25 PM

marc,
please feel free to 'snipe' any time you want :)
also, if this is the casual information you can provide when in a hurry, then i look forward to you sitting down with time!
your information was very helpful, and i had always suspected the information needed would come from a spanish source, due to the heavy involvement with moors and a cross-culture that was never more prevelant than in the 'medieval' period.
i shall get the link you sent translated and hope it holds some good information. you hint that it does, but my spanish doesnt get much further than ordering a couple of beers in a bar.
also, i will try and search this source -

SOLER DEL CAMPO, Álvaro. "La evolución del armamento medieval en el reino Castellan-Leonés y Al-Andalus (Siglos XII-XIV)", Ed. by Servicio de Publicaciones del E.M.E, Madrid, 1993.

no matter how poor, any iconography is desperately needed.
the Nasrid crossbow sounds intriguing, is there any images available. the two links you sent are in spanish, but do these sites hold images?
again, i can get the text sifted through.
also, the frescoes in Torre de las Damas - are there any publications that show these.

please expand when you have time. i will not be able to get the texts translated for another week, so expect some questions from me.

King Jaume I of Aragon sounds like a tough guy. a mere headache from a headshot! i wonder if that goes into mythology and fantasy. i remember the story of the sikh warrior who continued fighting after his head was cut off!!
if not, i think charlton heston ought to come out of retirement, put down his rifle and don a spanish sword for there is another epic to be made :)

thanks again.

Jens Nordlunde 25th July 2005 11:50 AM

Elgood: Firearms of The Islamic World, page 115, you will see a miniature with at least two crossbows – dated c. 1500. Too late for you I guess.

Syed Zafar Haider: Islamic Arms and Armour of Muslim India, page 186. Two drawings of crossbows, one from Egypt 11th century, in Museum of Islamic Art, Cairo and one from a miniature shown in ‘Zafar Nama’ c. 1467. In the text about crossbows he writes:

Takhsh.
A rare example of a crossbow is illustrated in the late fifteenth century Persian manuscript Zafar Nama. Under the nomenclature takhsh it is further mentioned in the manuscript as a part of the arsenal used by the Muslim Indian armies fighting against Timur.

A drawing in ink from the eleventh century, Egypt proves the presence of this weapon with the Islamic armies much before it became popular in Europe. Ease and effectiveness with which the composite bow was used prevented the crossbow from gaining favour with the Islamic armies. It is for this reason that no example of such a weapon has reached us from the past.

The crossbow from Egypt is a multipurpose weapon, a spear and a crossbow. Maybe they have other crossbows at the museum, but anyway it shows, that they knew the crossbow very early.


Jens

B.I 25th July 2005 01:45 PM

3 Attachment(s)
thank you jens,
could you please post the two drawings from haiders book. i can try and trace the manuscript here and find the reference.
attached is a persian inlaid silver bottle from the 13thC, in the freer gallery of art.
this is a good start but much more is still needed and much appreciated, as ever.

B.I 25th July 2005 01:53 PM

jens,
the image from firearms of the islamic world is great. although later, it clearly shows the crossbow being used at a developed stage, by someone that could only have been persian. it definately helps.
this shows that it was definately used and is a good introduction to begin the process of successive and comparative investigation.

Jens Nordlunde 25th July 2005 02:56 PM

2 Attachment(s)
The one to the left is the one from 11th century; the other one is from 15th century. Sorry for the bad pictures but they are placed very close to the spine.
To compensate for the bad quality, I also attach an Italian Walnut Stone Bow, early 17th century - although it is very late for your use.


Jens




Marc 25th July 2005 09:05 PM

Brian,
Just trying to drown you with work, you know... :)

About the books:
If you manage to take a peek to a facsimile copy of the Cantigas de Alfonso X (the tome in the Monasterio de El Escorial's library, IIRC) you'll find the images (Cantigas number 28, 99 and 187, crossbows in Muslim hands, there may be more). On the other hand, Soler del Campo's book may be easier to get...
The frescoes in the Torre de las Damas in the Alhambra are also shown there, though in the form of a drawing. Said drawing was done long ago by Gomez-Moreno, an Spanish arabist and archaeologist, and I seem to remember (might be wrong, here, but it can be checked) that the original frescoes are almost illegible now. They are also found in Nicolle's book. By the way, given its date of publication, I'm sure that this information must be found in other, later books by Dr. Nicolle dealing with the same subject (like "Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era", maybe, and some others) that might be easier to find.

Sorry, not images of the Nasrid crossbow that I can be sure of. The sites have information about it, one is a reference for a monography and the other is about an old exhibition that displayed it and that probably have a catalogue somewhere.

Oh, and the incident in front of Valencia is told by the King himself in his Crònica ("Chronicle"), that is quite faithful. It's not that strange, if one analyzes the circumstances, the helmet saved him from what it probably was a quite long-distance shot to start with. Besides, Jaume I, called El Conqueridor ("The Conquerer"), was also a formidable man, standing more than 2 m. tall. And he says that he had an horrible headache for several days. Maybe not really the stuff of legends... but a good deal of sheer luck, at least, well, that's for sure. :D

Oh, and I thought it might be worth mentioning that, IIRC, the Mamluk Sultan Baybars I, who was involved in the coup of 1250 and took later the power in Egypt in 1260 after defeating the Mongols in Ain Jalut, at some point in his career was the commander of the Mamluk units of crossbowmen.

Jens, just a small nitpick, the crossbow was well-established in Europe in the 11th c. There's for example a representation of a crossbowmen in the Beatus of Burgo de Osma dated in 1086.

P.D.
Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I
but my spanish doesnt get much further than ordering a couple of beers in a bar.

Well, that's not bad at all, don't let you be led to think us Spaniards use our language for anything less important... :D

fernando 25th July 2005 11:41 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Hi B.I.
The "Cuçalarab" shown in the the aquarel nr. 85 is part of the Moors armament in the 12th century, in the occupied peninsula. It is a modern drawing, to illustrate historical research for a miniature making company. It was just to confirm ( and reconfirm ) that the crossbow, in whatever variation, was used by arabs or muslims much before the VXV century.
But certainly this this isn't what you are looking for. Nor even the attached scanning of an illumination on "Chronicles of England" by Jean Wavrin ( 1498 ).
Certainly you are close from finding what you need.

Aqtai 26th July 2005 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc
...
Oh, and I thought it might be worth mentioning that, IIRC, the Mamluk Sultan Baybars I, who was involved in the coup of 1250 and took later the power in Egypt in 1260 after defeating the Mongols in Ain Jalut, at some point in his career was the commander of the Mamluk units of crossbowmen...

I'm not too sure about that:). I think this belief has come about because one of Beybars' titles was El-Bunduqdari. This has often been translated as "the crossbowman" in the belief that bunduq means crossbow. Which is reasonable when you consider that the modern Arabic name for rifle is bunduqiyah. However El-Bunduqiyah is also the Arabic name for Venice and bunduq in Arabic means hazelnut. I have seen suggestions that in Mamluk times the name bunduq was actually used for pellet bows, also reasonable when you consider the size and shape of a pellet.

Beybars had this title because his first master was the emir Aydekin El-Bunduqdar, which translates either as Aydekin the pellet-bow bearer, or Aydekin the crossbow bearer, depending on how you translate bunduq. This title was a court position, and referred to the sultan's attendents. There were also silahdars, sword bearers; tabardars, axe bearers and jukandars, polo-stick bearers. Sultan El-Salih Ayyub later purchased Beybars from Aydekin, which is how he came to be one of the Bahri mamluks.

Marc 26th July 2005 09:50 AM

Aqtai:

Ah! Thank you! Learning never stops, indeed. :) I appreciate very much the clarification on the Baybars issue.

Aqtai 26th July 2005 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc
Aqtai:

Ah! Thank you! Learning never stops, indeed. :) I appreciate very much the clarification on the Baybars issue.

You're welcome! :)

I've had a look at the Italian pellet crossbow posted by Jens again. I'm now wondering if during the Mamluk period the term bunduq actually referred to pellet-crossbows.

I'm also struck by the fact that Jens called it an Italian "walnut" crossbow, and that the word bunduq means hazelnut.

Mind you, bunduq is also the Arabic name for the Disney character "Goofy". :D I don't think the mamluks knew about him though... ;)

Jens Nordlunde 26th July 2005 06:13 PM

Well actually I called it an ‘Italian Walnut Stone Bow’, and the design could suggest, that it was made for shooting stones rather than arrows. Was it?
My knowledge of crossbows is more than limited:(.

Jens

Jim McDougall 27th July 2005 04:03 AM

Hi Brian,
I've been following this thread with great fascination, as I admit that the crossbow or any bows for that matter, are far outside my field of study. I have learned a great deal from the fantastic and well referenced material that has been posted here, and am intrigued by your topic and especially that what you are researching may be published. It is clear that little material is available on Islamic crossbows, particularly specific references in the West. It seemed quite inevitable that with the well established Moorish/European associations the most relevant material presented would be from Spain and Portugal with the outstanding data from Marc and Fernando. Indeed all the posts have added so much pertinant data that the history of these deadly weapons becomes much more approachable.

While it appears you are searching for specific data on an example noted, I have checked through some resources that may add some data from the historical perspective. In checking "Islamic Arms & Armour" ed. by R. Elgood (London,1980), the chapter titled "Archery in the Lands of Eastern Islam" by J.D.Latham & W.F.Peterson presents interesting discussion of the various bows and thier use, but no mention is made of crossbows. The prior published work of the authors is cited as "Saracen Archery: An English Version and Exposition of Mameluke Work on Archery c.1368 AD" (London, 1970). In the content of this work, the profound religious view of the expertise of a Muslim warrior with the bow seems well qualified, and seems to concur with the reference noted in earlier post where the 'Persian' crossbow is ordered discarded and the Arab bow was to be used.

In checking further in "Armies of the Caliphs" (Hugh Kennedy, London, 2001), there is considerable detailed discussion on warfare, tactics and especially on weapons. In that chapter, while weaponry and armour is well covered, it is noted on p.105 that "...neither in the case of the Khurisaniya nor of the Abna, is there any clear discussion of bows and archery". While this is obviously a somewhat isolated note, it seemed to exemplify the seemingly limited material on this topic.

Although there appears to be considerable absence of reference to the crossbow as noted in the early Islamic literature, whether because of the general terminology or its use being deferred for Orthodox reasons, it does seem likely that the Persians may have developed interpretations. I think that Jens' reference to the technology of siege engines and catapults may hold some of the potential for this thought, as well as a reference I found concerning more ancient origins for the crossbow.
In "The Ancient Engineers" (L. Sprague de Camp, N.Y. 1960) on pp.106-107, the author notes, "...the earliest crossbow was called a 'gastrapheles' or 'belly weapon' because of the curved crosspiece at the butt end, which the arbalester braced against his chest. It was also called a hand catapult and a scorpion. Although the crossbow was well known from the 4th c. AD on, it never attained the popularity in classical times that it achieved in medieval Europe. The only detailed description of an ancient crossbow that we have is by Heron of Alexandria, who describes a rather cumbersome device with a bow of horn and the elaborate working mechanism of larger catapults".

While this material does not provide answers specifically, I am hoping it will provide perspective that will constructively add to the outstanding references already posted in this thread. I also found some additional titles that could possibly be helpful:
"Arab Archery" N.A.Faris & R.P.Elmer , Princeton, 1945
"A Bibliography of Archery" F.Lake & H. Wright, Manchester, 1974
"The Crossbow, Medieval and Modern" Sir R Payne-Gallway, London 1958
"Book of Archery" G.A.Hansard, London, 1840

With very best regards,
Jim


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