Polish L-guard sword: restoration project
 

Gents, glad to join your community.
Few days ago I've acquired this lovely saber.
Now I'm in thoughts - how to make a new grip.
It will be great if you can give me any advice.

Welcome to the forum Evgeny.
I will copy your thread to the European section of our forum, so that you have more possibilities to get help.

Is that a mark on the blade?
Can you get a close up picture?
Marks are always interesting :)


.

Yes, it's marking.
But I didn't clean it yet.

...

Evgeny, first of all may I implore you to use much restraint in cleaning this extremely important sabre! :)
This weapon corresponds to sabres discussed some years ago in studies of the 'L-guard' hilt which apparantly may have evolved in early 17th century Eastern Europe from Italian hilts with similar feature in 15th into 16th centuries and quite probably other sources.
The site of the Battle of Beretschko (1651) in the Ukraine was excavated in the 1970s and documented in an article in 'Muzealnictwo Wojskowe' (Tome 5, 1992) : "Battle of Beretschko in 1651 in Light of Historical and Archaeological Sources" by Igor Svieschnokov.
During the Chmielnicki Uprising in 1651, Ukrainian Cossacks clashed with Polish forces, and this particular site among several thousand artifacts were some 32 sabres, many similar but three with this distinctive L guard. In Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons" p.212) a Polish sabre with this feature is shown, and it should be noted that the thumb ring is seen on the 'Beretschko' examples. It appears that the hilt was in use in Poland sometime in the early 17th century.

The mention of these examples from this battle simply illustrates the form in use c.1651 in Eastern Europe, there are similar Austrian examples from later in the 17th century.

What is key here is the deeply stamped cartouche near the langet on the blade, which appears to carry possible Islamic script or characters. It is known that allied with the Ukrainian Cossacks were some Tatars and Turks.
In discussion of Ottoman blades of these times it does seem that stamping of blade with deep circular cartouche was known in certain cases on one side only, possibly arsenal ? It is indeed possible that an Ottoman blade might have been in a Polish sabre of the time, or that similar hilts may have been in use by the Cossacks with Turkish blade.

In discussions I have been told that Cossacks used various types of swords which included Polish types as well as Eastern (incl. Ottoman) forms, but there a few actual examples of these Ukrainian swords (except the Berestschko find). Most are the result of repairs and refurbishing which accounts for certain amalgamations rather than congruent patterns.

With this it is compelling to suggest that this may be an L guard of Eastern European form of the first half 17th century with possible associations to the Ukrainian Cossacks.

With that I would include the distinct possibility that this stamped cartouche could be a tamga, family marking used by Lithuanian Tatars, though that is a remote option. Tamgas are rarely seen on weapons to the best of my knowledge, but the Lithuanians were a large component among the Zaporozhian Cossacks, and I thought it worthy of note.

I note that you have posted this sword on another forum as well. While anticipating response there, please feel free to share any of this information with them so that they might add it to thier notes.

All very best regards,
Jim

Addendum:
Forgot to note another feature which I overlooked, at the juncture of the crossguard and langet is the 'Maltese Cross' which is actually the heraldic 'cross pattee' in what is termed wedge form. This device was extremely popular in Poland-Lithuania as a symbol of nobility, and of course is accordingly associated with knighthood. This cross often is seen on the armour and pennons on lances of the famed 'Winged Hussars' and seems well placed on a sabre of this period.
Returning to the interesting cartouche, at a glance there is tempting (if not tenuous) resemblance to a winged figure, which while potentially suggesting the winged hussars, may also be a pictogram signifying the Turkish 'deli', light cavalry who may have influenced the winged theme of the Polish hussars.
This would again address the possibility of this blade being Turkish, which does not seem likely at this point however.

Most blades on these sabres were apparantly produced in Poland or Hungary according to Zygulski, but it is noted that many came from Styria or Genoa. If this were either Styrian or North Italian ( all blades Italian were not necessarily from Genoa, though termed so as this was primary port of departure) one would expect to see the distinctive 'sickle marks' which are paired, dentated semi circles with triple dots at each terminal.

Though the scans added are poor in quality, they might present an idea of the type of hilt grip and backstrap likely were present. The metal would most likely have been iron, the wood grip wrapped with black leather. With mounts and scabbard covered in black leather these were often colloquially termed 'black sabres' . Better illustrations of similar hilts in line drawings are in "Cut and Thrust Weapons" Eduard Wagner, 1967 (plates 7,30). Probably the best resource for detailed response would be Michal Dziewulski at the National Museum in Krakow. He wrote the outstanding article on Polish sabres connected to our forum archive site and has worked closely with Professor Zygulski .

Interesting, and disappointing.
Evgeny, who appears to have 'left the building' apparantly chose to post his sabre here despite already being active on another forum. While I know there are a number of members out there quite well versed on these Eastern European swords, nobody bothered to add even the ever popular 'Facebook' blurbs.....yet Fernando offered courteous welcome.
With no response Evgeny returned to the other forum to post, which resulted in a whole two empty single line responses, the thread ended.

Disappointed that there were no responses here, I sought to retrace as much old information and notes as I could find to compile a worthwhile response, hoping I might be able to offer some help. I always enjoy these kinds of posts personally as I learn going through old notes and recompiling data with new context. I post the results here to share my findings, as always to continue what I have always believed is the goal here..to learn together.

I have noticed mention in a number of threads and private messages that there seems to be a lack of interest which has extended to regularly posting members and beyond the usual lurking, though the number of views appear to reflect that activity maintaining well.

I had hoped the material I presented would prove helpful to Evgeny, and as always, I am pleased to know that perhaps others find it useful as well. I also always hope that it will promote or inspire others to add material they might have or share other examples. I just wanted to express these notes on this apparantly notable condition here which I hope will improve, and I truly encourage those of you out there reading to join in. I believe collecting should include research, and teamwork and participation in discussions are rewarding and beneficial to all.

Thanks for listening,
Jim

P.S. Jeff, I just saw your post on the other thread on the ethno side, my apologies for not noting your participation ...oops!! :)

There are those who like to re-enact Elvis ;) .
Obviously Jim, your precious posts will be a benefit to members in general; no time waisted ... never :cool: .

Jim,
I always read with delight your expert articles, I do not believe that a further contribution of Eugene is needed.
Here at least one specimen from the late 16th early 17thC.

best,

Thank you so much Fernando and Jasper! and Jasper that is a fantastic example you post, that is exactly what I was hoping for. I appreciate the kind words, but I am no expert, just a very enthusiastic lifelong student of arms. I usually research and study for many hours or longer before posting, and in doing so it is how I learn. Basically I look forward to either supported rebuttal or confirmation of my notes and especially other contributions. Then we can all update our notes!!! :)
All the very best,
Jim

Jim, I am far from being an expert or even someone well versed in the subject of Polish and Zaporozhian Cossack swords, but I have enjoyed reading your thorough posts on the subject. I have learnt a lot from them, and I am sure that others will also benefit from the thread in the future.

On the main question of the thread - how to make a grip to fit the sword, I would leave it without a grip if it were mine. You can guess at a grip based on surviving specimens, but there is no way of knowing how the grip of this particular sword looked like. From a historical point of view, adding a grip will temper with the authenticity of the sword as a whole, and from a collecting point of view, a new grip will not be cheap if well made and fitted, but will add $0 to the overall value of the sword (unless it is passed as being original upon resale, which will be fraudulent).

I am sure that everyone has his/her own opinion on this issue, but mine is to leave it as is: the lack of the grip does not detract from this nice sabre.

Teodor

Thank you very much Teodor, and as you know, personally I am very much with you, I believe in leaving weapons status quo with the exception of stabilizing any active rust or corrosion. As Jeff D. mentioned on the original thread, if any restoration is to be done, it should be done professionally and with considerable restraint. There is nothing worse to be than to see an old warrior stripped of the patination it earned through the years, and overcleaned to garish brightness. Not saying that Evgeny or anyone else here would do that but the concerns remain regardless.
Its always good hearing from you!
Best regards,
Jim

Entertaining :)
While Evgeny has 'left our building' it seems that there has been at last some activity on his thread over on 'the other side'. In the developing investigation I see that the pages (apparantly from the Zabloski book) which Vitaly posted on our original thread (on Ethnographic) have been posted on the thread.
As thier investigation ensues it seems they believe the sabre is early 17th century, however their observation is based on the Zablonski reference, and none of the material presented here seems to have been of any use to them. My invitation to openly use the material provided here over on the other forum was meant seriously, as I know my research is intended to be shared.
Wouldn't it be amazing if those serious about weapons research could 'share' information without interfora politics ? I can recall efforts for years many years ago trying to accomplish that, resulting rather unfortunately in the response. I regret that Evgeny left, and as always saw that glimmer of hope.
In any case, thank you all for your kind support here, you guys are great!!!

All the best,
Jim

I'm again here)

Jim, I'm very grateful for your very detailed and informative answer!
At one of Russian forums I've already heard that this is probably a Cossack's sword/saber. And interestingly enough, that this sword came to me from the Ukraine)

I forgot to specify at the beginning, that the pommel (drop-shaped top) is still remained.

I do not support reckless "restoration", so I'll try to be very gentle)

...

Evgeny, Im very glad to see you back! Too often someone will pop in with a query and then be gone. As noted I feared you had 'left the building' due to the tardy response, so thank you for returning.

It is a very nice sabre you have posted, and as I have indicated, the results of research some years ago concerning swords of the Zaporozhian cossacks
suggest these Polish sabres are known among those used in the Ukraine.
From the tone of your posts, I knew you would favor reasonable degree in restoration and appreciate your diligence in seeking detail.

Please keep us posted here of your progress, it is good to see old warriors properly cared for.

All the best,
Jim

:)

Well posted illustration Evgeny!!! Thank you, shows these sabres in context.
Which of the Osprey publications is this from?

All best,
Jim

Hello Jim,
I don't actually know - found this picture while googling.
Now trying to find the link.

Cornelistromp:
Can you source the publication where your example was published and the validation of dating?
Thanks.

Once again we are arguing about the permissible extent of restoration:-)


We have seen a lot of examples of restored Moro swords on this Forum ( the first example that comes to my mind). Why adding a new scabbard, handle, silver parts etc. to them is OK, while here it is not?

Thank you Evgeny for the note, and again, excellent illustration so thank you for sharing it.

It is always good to cite sources for quoted material and particularly illustrations, not only that those of us here might seek those references for further use, but to satisfy copyright matters etc. Typically material used here is considered in fair use perameters, used for scholarly discussion....with the only caveats avoiding using material from live auction and commercial instances.
In any case, I know I like to keep references with my notes and they are helpful in future discussions.

When it comes to restorations, obviously degree and manner of such matters are a matter of personal choice to the custodian of the weapon. There are no dictations of what is acceptable or not issued here, simply matters of personal opinion. My own personal view for example on older historic weapons which are no longer used and have remained static as either hereditary icons or in the case of items excavated or found, they should be kept to as much the condition in the status ending as possible. Obviously, much as with items found on shipwrecks, they must be stabilized and corrosive activity checked.
There is typically much to be learned from artifacts found in situ, and I personally feel a much stronger connection to items unaltered and able to see elements of construction etc.

While I admit to having limited understanding of Indonesian, Philippines and Moro as well as many Southeast Asian weapons, it seems that they are much more culturally active and in many cases considered still within what we consider 'working lives'. As such, they are, again as I understand, much revered culturally and it is considered disrespectful for them to remain in damaged or compromised condition. Therefore it is my impression that rather than 'being restored' they are being maintained and properly cared for in accord with cultural expectations.

This is not to say that European or any other old swords are not culturally relevant or not entirely revered as traditional icons, which they emphatically are...it is simply that they are perceived in more of a historic view rather than current. They do deserve every bit as much respect and admiration as the weapons of any culture, and again, the manner in which that is observed and carried out is entirely a matter of personal perception.

Ubokite Ostrice ( national museum zagreb) by Mario Kovac
isbn 953-6443-73-4

and the dating in my post #10 is wrong, it must be turn of the 17th and 18thC. 1690-1710 ( not end of 16th and early 17th).

Fascinating examples, Jasper.

Wow! Jasper these are beautiful examples and what outstanding photos!!!
These look professionally photgraphed and perfectly illustrate the particulars of these sabres. Its great to see these in real life rather than just the line drawings I have only ever seen. Are these in the museum you cited as well?
Thank you so much for posting these.

All the very best,
Jim

http://swordmaster.org/2010/10/05/bi...elnickogo.html

Hi Evgeny, thank you so much for retreiving the source and sharing the link. Also, thank you again for posting here and sharing this fascinating sabre!
All the very best,
Jim

Hello.
This is my first post in this forum. At the beginning sincerely apologize for my English. I am a Pole, and unfortunately I only know the Polish language. For communication I use the electronic translator. Sorry for the mistakes and ask for your understanding.

I am not a specialist in melee weapons, but I had the opportunity to read about the sword in Polish studies. Sabre with pictures of fellow Evgeny K just seems to be of Polish origin. This suggests the construction of the blade and handle. In the seventeenth century, like sabers used also in Hungary, but they differ in structural details.

Wojciech Zabłocki In the book entitled "Cięcia prawdziwą szablą" (Cutting the true saber) sword that is classified as, a polish saber hilt model 1b. In Polish, this type handle is called a "półzamknięty" (semi-closed handle). Sabres have this type of simplified design, handles and perhaps accounted for (as suggested by the author of the book) earlier model (transition) to the most famous Polish saber - hussar saber (as determined by the author as a type 1a). There is also the view that this type of sabers were produced for the less wealthy warriors.

Polish origin saber does not exclude the use of it by the Cossacks. Especially that thousands of Cossacks to serve in the Polish army as "Kozacy rejestrowi" (Registered Cossacks). I've just limiting to the formation haul was one of the reasons Khmelnytsky Uprising. It is therefore very likely that they used it as both Poles and Cossacks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registered_Cossacks

A few words of explanation. I am a hobbyist and am interested in mostly Spanish Navajas. Cold steel is outside the circle of my interests but once I wrote a short article about perhaps the most famous Polish saber - hussar saber - and then that I met with different types of Polish sabers. This article is posted on my website is in Polish but it is possible to automatically translate it into English. If you are interested is welcome.

http://www.navaja.pl/roznosci/76-szabla-husarska.html

Pozdrawiam serdecznie
Janusz

Welcome to the forum, Janusz.
Splendid material you got in your website :cool: .
If you search for 'navaja' here in our forum, you will find pictures of some old examples and respective discussion.

-

Thank you for the welcome Fernando. :)
Oh! I know this forum (when it comes to topics concerning Navajas). It is extremely interesting. I think everything has already read, especially interesting statements colleague Chris Evans. The first time I came to you has just a year ago in search of information about Navajas - but I registered only today. :)
Thank you very much for your warm words about my site. I hope that you liked. :)

As far as I know, we cannot speak of true "cossack saber", as they were part of a larger area and have adopted the arms found wherever they were. I think our friend Wolviex can elaborate.
Janusz, great site. I wrote a short essay myself about the navaja, alas I'm afraid automatic translator do not work well with Hebrew... http://www.collect.co.il/content.aspx?id=187

First of all, Janusz I would like to join in welcoming you to our forum! and thank you for the extra effort in communicating in English, which is greatly appreciated, outstanding job!
I wish of friend Wolviex was still posting here as he was a most valuable contributor and our key insight into Polish arms and armour. We have not seen him in some time and hopefully he will return.

Well made point by Broadaxe, it would be difficult to classify a particular weapon or style of weapon to any of the Cossack hosts, as typically they were amalgams of various ethnic groups and of course used weaponry as available. In the case of our discussion here, it seems of course that this sabre is likely as I earlier suggested, mid 17th century and probably of Polish-Lithuanian origin. The original question asked if the blade was Genoan, to which I noted this was unlikely and more probably a Styrian blade ( as best as I can see no suggestion of Lvov production).
The exacavations at Beretschko from the 1651 battle provided about 41 sabres, three of which I believe were this type. Obviously the Polish-Lithuanian types suggest use by probably both Polish forces and Zaporozhian.As this host was also largely comprised of expatriates from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth it supports that these may well have been in Cossack hands as well.

Thank you again for joining us and very much look forward to your posts!

All best regards,
Jim

Hello again. At the beginning I apologize for the delay in showing to my answer. Unfortunately, as a new member of the forum I have to wait until a moderator approves them. Surely you know these rules so please bear with me. :)

Overall, I thank you for your kind words on my part about Navajas. It's a lot to me. I'm very glad that you like. :)

@broadaxe
Very interesting article, congratulations. You can see that you put a lot of work into it. :)
I do not know how to translate from Hebrew to Polish is right but I saw some details that in the light of my knowledge may be controversial. Let me specify comments.

- Most supplementation of the date of creation is a breakthrough classic Navajas seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. However, in the development of Rafael Martinez de Peral y Forton "Las Navajas. Un Estudio y una Colección. "I found the information that in Mexico, already in 1590, in Pueblo de Los Angeles artist producing work Navajas. Cuchillero this came to the New World from Spain. This shows that even before this year in Spain acted Cuchilleros producing Navajas.
-Not all classic Navajas had bent handle, but actually it is a characteristic feature of these knives. There were many Navajas with straight handles, such as Navaja Marinera.
-Most Navajas, especially in the nineteenth century did not have a lock or lock type de piston or de Varilla - something similar to slipjoint. This was a consequence penal provisions. System "carraca" was popular but not universal.
- On the second picture is visible Navaja coming from France. Very characteristic for the Creators of Thiers. This is not a Spanish Navaja. On the third picture we see the French Navaja. Brand suggesting that comes with Zaragoza is false. Probably also comes with Thiers.

Very sorry if you misunderstood the content of your text. The translation is terrible. I hope you do not feel offended by my comments. Of course I do not consider myself an expert - I am only a hobbyist. :)

@Jim McDougall
I will try to post some more information about these types of sabers, and can picture (if I find), but please a little patience. For now, I do not see the preview of my message and they must be approved. How do I pass my probationary period to supplement the data. In the course of my ability.

Thank you for the warm welcome. :)
Janusz

Janusz, I'm not offended at all. My article was a side-effect caused by preparation for two seperate exhibitions, each held 2-3 navajas, and a demand from me to submit a simple article, not in-depth, for the general art-loving public. I had the opportunity to check the items in photos in person. Navajas are not my field of expertise nor a hobby, just a point of interest in the vast ocean of arms & armor. I hope to see posts from you regarding this field in other threads, let's keep this one with the Polish saber.

Below is a stunning little 7" x 9" water colour in my collections.

I understand the artist is French and it is signed and dated from the start of the 19th century. Note the 'L' guard type sabre hung from the middle horseman.

The image is a little out of focus. When I have it returned from the gent who is conserving/cleaning it for me I'll try to show a little more detail on the sword.

I suspect at face value they are Polish or Lithuanian Tatars though I am sure artistic license abounds....feel free to correct my attribution.

Gav

@broadaxe
Of course you're right. Let us return to the topic saber. :)

I would like to show you some pictures that show this type of sword. Photos come from the books and topics dealing with the Polish sword, therefore, are images that show has just Polish sabers. The information that I could find say that the sword such as used in both infantry and cavalry (hussars, even).

In the typology of penetrating marked influence each other and the formation of specific types of swords. In the middle window shows Polish uniforms (Polska), "Wschód" = east, "Zachód" = west.

Image is a replica saber hilt by Andrzej Mikiciuk. Drawings and typology of the books: Włodzimierz Kwaśniewicz "1000 słów o broni białej i uzbrojeniu ochronnym" (1000 words with melee weapons and protective armor) and Wojciech Zabłocki, "Cięcia prawdziwą szablą " (Cuts a real sword). Drawings showing the Polish infantry from the seventeenth century and the Polish nobleman found on the web.

Thank you so much Janusz for the outstanding detail in illustrations, and especially for citing the sources, something too often overlooked in contributions. Extremely impressive reproduction example posted, and my compliments on your text, knowing you are using a translator I can appreciate the extra effort in the dramatic syntax improvement.

All very best regards,
Jim

Hi Jim :)
I just hope that my text is at least partly understandable. Unfortunately, the same I can not check. :(

Here is an old thread, close to the subject: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=759
And from another forum: http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewto...er=asc&start=0

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewto...er=asc&start=0