Colonial hanger, Spanish dagger or ?
 

Here it is. Well, now you can see why I hate posting pics. :mad: First, two hours of photos too big to download. With editing, thought I solved problem, but ended up with this. AQnyway, will try to upload more that can actually be seen!

Him Mark,
You don't need to exhaust yourself, trying to tame the beast.
Jst email the pictures to me (for one) as they are, and i will be glad to resize and post them on your behalf.
Fernando

Hi Eley,

Why don't you simply open a free account on Photobucket.com, and then simply copy/paste the image code or image thumb at the end of your post?

It saves website space and provides a large image.

BTW, Jim'bo ist ein expert in espadas anchas...

Best to ye' et Nando

M

We'd rather these pictures be uploaded to the forum for continuity.

When they disappear as links in time as they will; we will have nothing to show to people searching the database .

Please be kind and upload your pics . :)

Hi Rick :) ,
I couldn't agree more....its infuriating when reading older threads and finding no pictures (broken links) :(

All the best
Regards David

Hi Mark,
Thank you for posting this!!!! You know I get weak in the knees every time I see one of these, and Manolo thank you so much for the kind words...although Im no expert I do readily admit my passion for them.

Mark, its good to see the progress you've made, and I must tell you that while a lot of folks are pretty comfortable with the dynamics of these magic boxes.....it took me more years than I care to admit to finally figure out how to post things. Actually my co-pilot here (my wife) is the tech support around here, and she finally helped me with getting it done...and once I had done it a few times, it became less of a mystery.


Fernando, very kind gesture there sir!!! A true gentleman you are :)

I agree, these threads are intended to stand as a virtual archives for future collectors queries and research, and its important to keep their integrity with images intact.

Thank you so much for posting this, and I'd really like to get some discussion going on espada anchas.

All best regards,
Jim

Hello,

I imagine these were seen in the Phillipines as well. Here is a tourist oddity from a while back that seems to combine the tradition of the espada with fantasy nihonto.

Regards,
Emanuel

oopsies!

And I thought I was helping by not downloading the actual pic....

Zorry!

M

Thanks, everyone, for replying and coming to my aid.

Fernando, I may take you up on that. I'm going to try one more time and if I fail, I'll PM you. Thank you so much for the offer. Pics aren't the best, but they should get the point across once properly sized...

Jim, I also have a "co-pilot" in all things gadgety, namely my 13 y.o. daughter- :o . In any case, I'm still not sure if this piece is an espada or a colonial American piece. I will hopefully be posting better pics soon. Thanks!

Marc, is your OS Windows or Mac?

Hi Manolo,
It's Windows, but save your time. I am completely illiterate when it comes to even the basic computer skills. My daughter, on the other hand, is pretty good. We'll eventually get it right.....or I'll be sending the pics off to Nando- :D

Are the photos upcoming?

Hello, Dmitry, and thanks for coming in on this one. I'm still working on getting them loaded and will probably end up sending them off to Fernando for uploading. I am now convinced that the strapwork around the hilt is indeed low-grade pewter and not lead as I initially thought. It is soft enough that I can slightly scratch it with my thumb nail, but where it has broken away from the wood grip, it is brittle and non-bendable. It's not white metal, but I guess it could still be some other alloy. Tin? I know tin-smithing was around then. Have to do more research. I still think it's a contstant for early American, but also Span colonial. :shrug:

Trying again...

More pics...

Thanks, Rick! That program you recommended was easy to use. I did it myself- gasp!

Hi M Eley :) ,
well done ;) Having loads of teenagers around I had to learn quickly...to save face :D

Hope you don't mind ..I have re-edited your picture and reposted. I'm lucky, I have a photo editor which is easy to use.

All the best
David

Ah dear......since writing this post.......loads more pictures have been posted :o You have obviously mastered it now :cool:

.

The sword measures just under 22" long with a 17" blade, so I guess it could be either a short hanger or long dagger. As already stated, the interesting wood grip cut with grooves with metal strapwork (damaged on one side). The alloy isn't white metal, silver, or lead (not soft enough). It could be tin or pewter (I suspect the latter). Note the small hole in the quillon, possibly for a chain link or knot? So...what is it? Euro hanger, colonial piece, Spanish espada? Dagger or sword? Late 18th, early or mid-19th? Thanks all.

Hi
I would not rule out Africa......there are a number of similar swords originating from West Africa.....Although I have not seen one with the 'spiral' decorated hilt.

All the best
David

.

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/spezial/Fool/appl.gif

Fernando

Just a quick thought....the metal 'spiral' could be a zinc alloy. Africans are masters of utilising any resource. They obtain the zinc alloy from the outer casing of dry cell batteries. (invented late 19th C).

Bearing in mind many areas are fairly remote from electrical supplies, the use of batteries by colonalists was increasingly more widespread as the 20th C progressed. Discharged batteries were not re-chargeable and discarded.

A fairly similar sword from Africa
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=toureg

Regards David

.

Hmmm...I guess it was presumptive of me to not think of a possible ethnographic origin. It could indeed be African, but I still think this piece has some aging to it. I also was thinking about zinc, but being that it's use came later in the 19th, I dismissed it. Is there any test I could do to positively identify the alloy in the hilt? I still think it is tin or pewter, but not sure.
If it is African, I hope it's Algerian or Moroccan (Pirate!! :D ), but the piece looks more European/N American to me.- :shrug:

Mark, beautifully done!!! Congratulations :) It really feels great to master the mysteries of these things, and its fun once you get going.
This certainly does not resemble any espada ancha I've seen, though these did get pretty crude in later times, and by the mid 19th century were essentially large Bowie knives. It does not rule out the innovative edged weapons created by Mexican blacksmiths later in the 19th century, which would be hard to accurately identify.
The unusual D guard and scrolled overlap at the pommel, which seems more characteristic for a quillon terminal and the gadrooned metal on the grip could lend toward Africa. With the style and shortened blade, maybe it could be a dirk from the Maghreb's 'nautical enterprises' ?
Interesting though!!!!
I look forward to your postings coming with this newfound skill!!! yay!
All the best,
Jim

Thank you, Jim and David for responding.
David, the sword you mentioned with the zinc hilt was Taureg, a people from the Maghreb, so perhaps my jest wasn't too far off. it would be nice if it were associated in that part of the continent for my collecting purposes.

Jim, all I can say is...Aaaarrrr! Have you ever seen a gadrooned African grip like this before? It was what attracted me to the piece in the first place. Unusual.

Anyway, any suggestions as to testing metal just to see if it's zinc, tin, or ?? Also, a date? Mid- to late- 19th, I guess?

Hi Mark,
Actually, in a word...no, but Im always curious about these composite, very workmanlike weapons, which would certainly be most likely to have been assembled by makeshift armouries or blacksmiths. As we have discussed, the high times of piracy and adventure did not end with that of the "Golden Age', but continued worldwide to this day of course. The 'Spanish Main' existed into the 20th century through the Caribbean, Gulf of Mexico, Philippines and South America, with the far eastern sector in Spanish regions of the Maghreb.
Then there were 'Barbary Pirates' et al, and this I think presents most of the confusion in these 'worked' and assembled ersatz weapons.

I feel like I've seen something with the strap like guard which extends as a D guard, and protruding pommel strap with scrolled terminal, it seems to recall the 17th century English hangers seen in some cases. The 'heavy spiralled cage' is another representation of hangers hilts of 18th century, but only in much finer banded work or spiraled flutes in wood or horn design. The crude heavy bars and the metal itself seem more 20th century. I'm not sure about pewter, which I think was more a cast metal than workable sheeted type, and this seems too heavy for tin, looks more like aluminum or alloyed sheet steel. Nothing from the early types and periods this appears to represent.

The blade, and the hilt seem much earlier than this unusual grip cage, and it seems that a dirk or Bowie type weapon was fashioned here. I guess thats about the limit of my 'forensics' interpretation :)
As always, looking forward to thoughts of others.

Arrrr!!! You're always good for these conundrum pieces Capt. Mark!!!

All the best,
Jim

Am I too suspicious
 

Friends,
This list is consistently polite and positive and I admire that, but....
I have to say that I am very suspicious of this piece. The blade and the guard may be all right, but the grip just looks, well, hinky. I bet the metal is either lead or pewter - and sure it could be zinc or "spelter" -This kind of work is EASY. If you have not already studied them, I recommend Ben Hunt's wonder books on "Indian craft." He shows how to this kind of work and it is not a big deal. Beyond that, look at how the grip fits the blade. It is klunky and I think bad from a functional point of view. I bet it is very heavy and I just can't believe that it is balanced or comfortable in the hand. Look at how wide the grisp is were it joins the guard. If it had age, I would expect much more wear at this point.
So, I have to wonder if this wasn't make - or assembled or augmented - in a basement workshop, recently.
Forgive me if I am being too suspicious.
Peter

Hello Peter,

Although the piece is primitive and disappointing to me in that it isn't what I had hoped, I don't think it's as bad as all that. Many "colonial-made" weapons are crude in the way mine is. I have several Spani colonial pieces that could easily have been made in the basement, but have aging and are established patterns. Likewise, most of the American colonial pieces in Neumann's and Moore's guides are clunky, mismatched blades, incorrect balanced, etc. This little dagger is actually very light, has a nice patina and is intended as a true weapon. Likewise, African weapons were made using whatever materials were availible, car engine springs and zinc thermometer cores included. Many Zulu spear blades in the 19th were made from barrel hoops from British kegs. Likewise, I wouldn't place it any earlier than late 19th.

Hi Mark,
perhaps you should put this piece on the Ethnographic Forum....not everyone views the European one and you might get more input ;)

Regards David

Hi

I've just stumbled across this post...I'm fairly sure this is a West African sword (as mentioned by Katana), copied from the European type. Probably Fon (Dahomey) or Akan (Ghana). I've had knives from that area with lead inlay to the handle, in the past.

The forest kingdoms of West Africa had a long period of contact with Europeans and copied their weapons etc extensively.

A very interesting piece.

Regards.

Hi Mark,
there seems to be markings/numerals near the hilt, is that the case ?

David

I don't think this piece has much age to it. Other than that I don't have anything to add in terms of constructive input. Perhaps someone will come up with a more definite attribution.

GRRRRR!!!!!!! :mad:
Sad....but true. :shrug:

Actually this thread has gotten monumentally more mileage than the one I posted not too long ago to try talking about espada anchas. Clearly the term 'Spanish hanger' works better, as not that many out there recognize the espada ancha (=Sp. wide sword, broadly describing frontier hangers and swords in New Spain).

Dmitry, I think the attributions discussed so far are probably pretty thoroughly as much as can be assessed, and I agree with Mark's position on it overall. I think these are vintage components (and I will find that scrolled pommel strap someplace!) and assembled in the manner that those who desperately need weapons typically have found through the centuries....in any way they can.
Rather than having the appearance of a piece intended to be passed off as something it is not, it seems more a working piece, and using components as best as possible. I have an old Spanish piece comprised of the larger part of one of the Spanish dragoon blades (Do not draw me without reason etc.); the hilt of a briquet (cast brass infantry hanger); and the three bar guard of a cavalry sabre........obviously components that were incongruent, but on the frontiers, pretty didnt matter. Anybody who knows about these rugged wildernesses and those who survived in them knows..everything got recycled!

The pewter or whatever it is, metal, as Peter describes, is certainly a malleable component and the only question really is, how long ago would this particular caged grip have been fashioned? The components such as the blade (and would like to know if there are marks on the blade as 'hawkeye' David keenly observed!:) and the guard are old.

Best regards,
Jim

Previous page is full of attributions, from Philippines to North Africa.
It's time to produce some material evidence! :)

Well noted Dmitry, thats always what we hope for, and I know I'll be using whatever resources I have and can find to add whatever I might locate. I think thats the best part of all this..the learning. Mark has always had a certain acumen for finding intriquing examples that often reveal interesting histories, so I'm sure theres a unique story in this one somewhere.

I just noticed the interesting and colorful item that David posted has the scrolled D guard element at crossguard terminal and pommel cap. While this Philippine fantasy item is obviously turista stuff, these can sometimes reflect influences seen in actual weapons of the past, present or both.

I recall some years ago while resesrching the M1913 Patton swords of the U.S.Army I discovered that at some point just prior to or during WWII many of these were cut down to form fighting knives/dirks. I have never seen one of these in altered form, but must have looked formidable with the huge bowl guard!

The point is the ersatz modification of weapons into fighting forms that were more suitable for thier intended use in the time. As I mentioned earlier, village blacksmiths in Mexico constantly turned out unbelievable and often some quite ungainly appearing weapons in the colorful and turbulent history of that country. Since components of old weapons that had sometimes been around for a century or even more were used, not only were these odd pieces hard to assess, but the numbers of early period weapons diminished notably.

This quite understandable phenomenon is nothing new or unusual, and factoring in trade routes and geopolitical 'turbulence' in many cultural spheres and colonial regions, the potential for accuracy or plausibility for these type weapons becomes a daunting challenge. This is why many shy away from entering in on making observations and comments, especially here, and why such material is often slow in forthcoming.

With that noted, my compliments to Mark, for his ever amazing fortitude and optimism in acquiring these interesting and challenging items; to those who constantly 'pick up the gauntlet' ...David, Peter and Colin with plausible and well placed assessments and to you Dmitry, for extending the courtesy of posting, even though as you say, you had nothing in particular to add.

That gesture means a lot!!! And hopefully says something to the host of lurking readers out there who are afraid of posting for fear of being chastized or whatever other reasons they have .........it takes courage at times to make comments, especially on topics one might know little of.
Its called participation, and sincerely appreciated, thank you guys.

All very best regards,
Jim

Actually, the only thing that was used for these fighting daggers [not really knives, since the edges were not sharpened, if I remember correctly] were the cut down Patton sword blades. The handles were made to fit by the artisans. Basket guards were discarded.

I'll look through my sources tonight. Perhaps I'll find something simi8lar to Mark's piece.

Thanks for that info Dmitry! I'll put that with my notes....I kinda wondered how effective those huge bowl guards would have been. All it said in the reference I had, from what I recall, was that these swords were cut down, but no reference specifically to blade or hilt etc.

Thank you for checking further for more on Marks piece, I wish I had access to more of my old notes!!! Its just great to have teamwork in checking into these things.

All the best,
Jim

Thanks to all involved who have taken the time to tackle this tricky item. Likewise, a special thanks to you, Jim, for noting the sometimes difficult position of posting an "unknown", versus a known specimen for discussion. (This reminds me of some of the friction I created when posting an axe in the past that I thought could have been a "private purchase" boarding axe. No material exists on the subject other than conjecture based on classic naval models and what a merchantman piece might have resembled. Many would only choose to purchase a known, marked piece rather than take a chance on something that might not be the real deal. I don't mind taking chances, provided I don't spend a bundle doing it- :D )

When I posted this item, I left it open for discussion and am fascinated where it has gone. I mean, at least it did garner some attention. While not over-joyed that it isn't colonial American, I do find it pleasing that it could very well be West African, either Dahomey (slave trade heavily associated with piracy) or Maghreb (piracy directly). While it is embarassing to be so far off in my initial thoughts on this piece, I will absolutely stick by my opinion as to the age of this piece. The pics (poor ones made by me, I admit) don't do it justice, nor show the true age. The wood has a patina as dark as my old boarding pike discussed recently. The blade has patina, wear, and mild pitting reminescent of several colonial pieces I possess (the marking in question is so faint, I cannot tell for sure if it is just a forging flaw or a long-worn mark- sorry!). Even the lead(?), pewter (?) has an old dull luster exactly like my Victorian-era tavern flask. I have no doubt that it is pre-1900, even if it's origin remains a little fuzzy. In any case, hope that an example of something similar out there may turn up.

Anthony Tirri's book on Islamic weapons doesn't have any weapons with a similar grip.

Jim, here's what a WWII Patton-bladed dagger looks like. There are variations, this particular one is by Anderson.

Hi Dmitry,
Thanks very much for the photos......looks like a cast bayonet hilt.
Not exactly a Fairburn-Sykes :) but looks like it would do the job.

All the best,
Jim