NORTHERN EUROPEAN HELMET ZISCHAGGE from the 17 TH Century URGENT NEED HELP !
 

Hi everybody,
I urgently need an opinion on this NORTHERN EUROPEAN HELMET ZISCHAGGE said to be from the 17 TH Century, as i don’t have any knowledge in this kind of helmets. I ‘m sorry for the bad quality of the pictures, they were taken with my cellphone. I will be very happy to have some opinions and to be informed in the case that this helmet has something suspicious, for example the Nasal protection or Ear plates ….
I hope I will have some advice about this helmet.
Regards

Cerjak

more pics
 

more pics

Hi Cerjak,

Sorry to see that nobody has responded so far.

My expertise in parts of armor is very limited, and my expert friend whom I linked with your query has not yet replied.
Telling from the surface condition and the visible criteria of manufacture, like the patina, washers etc., I would not doubt that this is an original Zischagge from the second half of the 17th c., probably of Polish origin.
Sadly I cannot answer your detailed questions with sufficient authority but I noticed a similar piece ending on ebay a couple of days ago, which my friend thought was a fake; I differed from his opinion and it fetched 1,100 euro.

Hoping this will be of at least some help,
best,
Michael

One more.

Hi Cerjak,

Finally my friend contacted me. He, too, thinks that the Zischagge is completely genuine but might be a bit younger (later) than I thought it was, probably from the period of Prince Eugen, ca. 1700, and most probably from the Balkan region.

Best,
Michael

Michael
Many thanks for those information’s.
I could see some differences on the fabrication between those 2 helmets. This one from your post don't have nasal protection and the Ear plates seems to not fit with the helmet. The laminated tail over the back of the neck is build with 3 plates of metal only.
and fabrication process is hidden by the black paint ,it seems that a double layer of metal was used to made the bowl but we can't see from the inside the rivets.
I would like to say more but with my Basic English it is difficult to translate my full opinion.
I will have a look too in this fantastic book from George Cameron Stone "A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms and Armor in All Countries and in All Times "
On it there is so many photos (only small size and black& white) but it is a so exhaustive book for the period!

Kind regards
CERJAK

Hi Michael,
Any ideas on this one of mine, I long thought it was a Victorian creation but one never knows.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Cerjak, please excuse my hi-jacking of your thread but as it is in the same vein I hoped you wouldn't mind.

Hi Norman,

As far as I can tell from your images, the one you posted is definitely a Victorian (Historismus, 19th century) copy. It shows no traces of hammering, and the rivets do not have the raw but useful washers, let alone does the surface have the rich rust patina above an old layer of black arsenal lacquer.

And: sometimes one does know ... and can tell. :)

Best,
Michael

Cerjak, the lobster tail helmet expert was right, it really is an austrian helmet from around 1700, prince Eugene s army fought major battles in the Banat region taking Timisoara from the turks in 1716, and in our museum helmets identical to yours are clasified as austrian, army of Eugene of Savoy .

Thank you, Sergiu,

Your confirmation has been passed to 'my' expert! ;)

Best,
Michael

new pics
 

Dear Sergiu

I just add some better pics ,the last one was not so good.
You could see that there is some rest of black paint ,Do you thing that it could be the original colour ?
I will be great if you could post some pictures from similar helmet from your museum.
Kind regards

Cerjak

MORE PICS
 

MORE PICS

Hi Cerjak,

I noticed that black varnish already in your first images. It is characteristic old arsenal paint used on many weapons, including firerarms, and items of ironwork as a means of conservation. It should in any case be preserved!

Best,
Michael

NEW PICS
 

NEW PICS

Hi Michael
Do you have any idea how I could preserve this paint and in the same time stop the rust .
I only want to preserve this helmet exactly as it is untouched.

Regards

Jean-Luc

Hi Jean-Luc,

My recipe proven best for over 30 years - and many hundreds of years of arsenal care before! - is, as always, olive oil.
Not only will it stabilize and preserve the remains of lacquer, it will at the same time intensify the original surface color!

Best,
Michael

ok
 

Thank you Michael I will try.

cerjak, I just read the new posts on this thread and it s sunday, but on one working day next week I ll make some photos of our lobster tail helmets and post them here. Black paint was indeed used on our metal items as way of preservation in the past. Currently we use mainly Ballistol weapons oil but olive oil will be tested too starting from now ;)

Thank you Sergiu
It will be great to see your photos.
Have a nice weekend
Cerjak

Well,

I feel like I should have added one important fact, so here it is:

You might as well not do anything about it and just leave the original surface alone. After all, your fine zischagge has come down to you over about three centuries and it is still there - so don't worry: it won't dissolve or even alter while being being with you.
If there is one thing about conservation of virtually 'untouched' surfaces that I have learned over the decades, it is: just leave them the way they are!!!

Best,
Michael

Four Zischagges Sold at a Vienna Auction House
 

For results please see right bottom corner of description scans.

m

THANK YOU MICHAEL
 

Michael,



Thank you to have find the time to send those other Zischagge photos.
Now I can see that my Zischagge is in fantastic condition and also much more elaborate helmet.( specially the The laminated tail &eyeshade )
Of course I have paid much more for it but don't have any regrets.
I will follow your advice and he will have this week end his olive oil and nothing else !
You should with your experience write a thread about the Gun & armour preservation and cleaning it will be useful for a lot of collector .
You can imagine how many antique guns I have already seen polish like brand new :Many people using "dremel" & acid are killing patina and marks
Kind regards
CERJAK

Hi Cerjak,


Thank you for taking the words right out of my mouth on preserving patina and causing as little surface change as possible!

I, too, have seen too many completely overcleaned and brutally ruined pieces and have often uttered my opinion here on the forum. There are different opinions on this matter however, which we all have to accept in the end.

And: as long as museum people keep killing patina and presenting surfaces shining 'as new' - which those items mostly had not when they were actually new hundreds of years ago! - the collector's view will be spoiled and he too will tend to follow the 'example' given by so-called 'authorities' and will kill the surfaces of his weapons as well ...

Finally, you are absolutely correct about the fact that the solid quality of your Zischagge cannot be compared with the lesser items I posted, so you really should not worry about paying more!


Thanks again for getting the point,
and best,
Michael

standard weight from Zischagge helmets
 

I have a question about the standard weight from those helmets .
I found some descriptions from similar ZISCHAGGE and was confused to see that the weight was around 1800 gr / 4 lbs but the weight from my helmet is around 4000gr/ 9 lbs .
So two times more !
I hope that somebody could explain me why there is a so big difference.

Cerjak

New helmet
 

[QUOTE=Matchlock]Hi Cerjak,


Thank you for taking the words right out of my mouth on preserving patina and causing as little surface change as possible!

I, too, have seen too many completely overcleaned and brutally ruined pieces and have often uttered my opinion here on the forum. There are different opinions on this matter however, which we all have to accept in the end.

And: as long as museum people keep killing patina and presenting surfaces shining 'as new' - which those items mostly had not when they were actually new hundreds of years ago! - the collector's view will be spoiled and he too will tend to follow the 'example' given by so-called 'authorities' and will kill the surfaces of his weapons as well ...

Finally, you are absolutely correct about the fact that the solid quality of your Zischagge cannot be compared with the lesser items I posted, so you really should not worry about paying more!


Dear Michael

Once again could you give me your opinion for this helmet said to be a German Helmet From early 17 th century.
In my eyes it seems to be a nice one but I always afraid to do a mistake.
I hope you could help me ...
Best regards
Cerjak

Hi Cerjak,


Thank your for trusting me that much but as I have stated various times, pieces of armor are not exactly my field of expertise.

Telling by your photos though, I would say the helmet looks very good and original; it reminds me of similar helmets which are part of late field armor (Feldkürisse), Thirty Years War, in the famous Graz Armory; many of them were supplied by a Styrian maker in 1635, so a date of ca. 1620-30 seems quite right for your helmet.

It also seems close in style to a Savoy helmet.


I do hope this will help a bit. ;)


Best,
Michael

Michael

Of course your opinion will help me ! and it is very nice to receive it so quickly I was lucky.
Thank you to be so active in this forum

cerjak

Thanks again, Cerjak,

I add two scans from the basic book Europäische Helme (European Helmets) by Heinrich Müller and Fritz Kunter, Berlin, 1984; the first scan depicts so-called Mantelhelme of the Thirty Years War period. I could not find the English equivalent of that term.

As you are interested in helmets you should consider purchasing it.


Best,
m

Michael

Always good advice I must buy it



Cerjak

It is offered extremely cheap here:

http://www.booklooker.de/B%FCcher/M%...2a4071dde478bc



I also found this Wikipedia article on zishagges:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capeline

They are considered to have replaced the older type of Mantelheme in the course of the Thirty Years War.

m

you are really to good with me again thank you !
I sould buy this helmet tomorow I will let you know

Cerjak

I would if I were you!

I wish you good luck and all the best! :)

m

German cuirassier helmet
 

Hi Michael

I just receive the helmet and I post much more better pics in a new thread.
Condition his really great.( no missed part ,no restauration)

Regards

Cerjak

Congratulations, Cerjak,


Well done!

I noticed you bought it when reading

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15711


Best, ;)
Michael

Hello Cerjak,

Do you still have this lobster tail helmet ?
It is one of the nicest I have ever seen!
Kind regards
Ulfberth

Hi ulfberth,


Yes of course this helmet is still in my collection and will stay for long time.
You are right ,I have seen many zishagges but never from this quality.
As previously wrote this helmet is very heavy ( two times more than the common zishagges and also still his original black varnish .
Also his size seems bigger than other exemplar.
The only picture I have found is from an french auction house and it seems that it is the same helmet.
also the second helmet showed in my thread is not anymore in my collection : I have send it back to the seller because it was not an original but only a good reproduction ,and such copy are regularly offered in auctions so it ‘s why I would like to warn all the members to be very suspicious about such type of helmet.
best
Cerjak

England
 

Hello ,
In my opinion this is a modern copy that is made in England I have been burned on a similar example from Nottingham England from a E bay seller over 20 years ago. They make these helmets to current day. I am 100% sure this is a 20th century modern copy. I had the same rivets on my helmet also .

NORTHERN EUROPEAN HELMET ZISCHAGGE
 

Hello ,

Hello Swordcollector,

do you still have pictures of yours, or pictures of similar ones ?

kind regards

Ulfberth

Luther,

First of all , I don’t know what is it a professional opinion. In the forum most of the member are collector with a high interest in arms and armor and also few members with a real scholar knowledge but no one his professional collector !
I post again the pictures from my helmet to be sure that we speak about the same helmet !
I bought this helmet 4 years ago from auction and in this time I have ask advices to Mikael (matchlock ) before to buy. This helmet had been catalogued With an estimated value ( 2 -3 times more than a standard ZISCHAGGE because of its high quality and also its very good condition.
This helmet is not only 100 % from period but it is also a beautiful ( only the leather attachment cheek piece are later replacement ) and a quite rare helmet classified as Austrian, army of Eugene of Savoy.
Also when you have it in hand you can see some details like this inimitable trace of arsenal paint
I have seen many ZISCHAGGE but rarely from this quality and never the same exemplar.
At last this helmet been authenticated as” late 16 th century or early 17 th officer capeline” during the auction by Jean- Claude Dey (French expert on arm and armor ) with only one observation about the later replacement on the cheek piece leather attachments .
So I can’t agree your opinion and also would like to see your pictures from your helmet.