LEATHER WORKING LUNETTE KNIFE
 

This item found in an antique shop was thought to be a 19th c. flensing knife, but there is little info on these. There seems to be a number of variations, but this lunette shape is seen on a couple of examples I found.

The first pics are of the example, which has an unusual makers mark.

The other is with a longer handle and of mid 19th c Maine.

Another example with handle like mine and similar blade is from NE England, Whitby, and used in 19th c.

Any chance anyone out there has ever seen anything like this, or the makers mark ?

James Dixon Victorian Flensing Knife or Ulu c1850-60. Whaling Industry History. Antique Sheffield Knives.

similar and the history on the listing is fun

https://www.etsy.com/ca/listing/7701...isting_details

sorry I haven't found one with the mark, but a lot of Ulu's have similar shape

https://www.thepaintboxgarden.com/ul...uaq-greenland/

more info

I regret to say I think it is rather more mundane. A leatherworker's or saddler's round knife.

https://hwebber.co.uk/shop/c-s-osbor...IaAgn_EALw_wcB

Best wishes
Richard

Thank you so much guys!
Naturally my hopes were for the whaling use, but I had seen the more mundane description as a leather working knife. It seems those in listing mentioned the alternative leather work use prudently, while the heading was for the whalers use.

Is it possible these might have became a 'crossover' or duplicate items?
In images of flensing tools, many seem to have longer handles, in fact notably so, but with same lunette style handle.

It would seem that the longer handle would be needed considering the size of the whale, but the smaller version in different stage where a long handle was inconvenient?

I hope the topic of 'whaling' is not disturbing to many readers, but my intent is toward historic aspects as always. There is very little in resources on these kinds of antiques, unless in specialized maritime antiquities firms or sellers.

Even if a more 'mundane' object, this example still has interest as an antique item, and hopefully the marking might be found. I have checked Levine's "Guide to Knives"(4th Ed.) but no luck.

You bet it is , Jim ... historic or not !

All About
 

Fascinating reading almost encyclopedic in scope whalesite.org

Thank you so much Rick, very much appreciated.

Sorry Jim,
Mundanity even extends to the longer handled variant.

https://www.pitchcare.com/shop/bulld...MaAnyCEALw_wcB

Best wishes
Richard

No problem Richard, perhaps accepting this identification will render this item less offensive and removed from the squeamishness brought in cases by the other possibility.

While whaling today is frowned upon, surely discussion of the topic is still acceptable. Don't forget that this Forum discusses items which are designed to kill people which surely is less acceptable!
Stu:confused::confused:

Options Stu, options. Evidently all our forum members find it acceptable to talk about guns and swords; but perhaps some of them would find it dispensable to develop discussions over whale flensing.
... Just saying ;).

Genesis 1:26-28; 9:1-5

Alan
I dont think there is any chance that this diktat has been missed by humanity in general. We have and are continuing to put our best efforts forward in plundering and commodifying this planet to the point of no return.

Yes Sid, you're right.

The knife cuts both ways, we were given choice:- we can read these quotes in at least two ways.

Thus endeth the lesson for today, when references to biblical quotes & political quotes get into discussion, its time to go home.

Bingo! ;)

Not intending to switch the topic but, which tool would a whale need to 'flay' a man :rolleyes: :eek:.

My regrets for ever posting this item. I had hoped it would be discussed objectively without 'sensitivities' and editorial.
I think at this point I would gladly accept the 'option' suggested in that this item MUST be a LEATHER WORKING TOOL.

Certainly leather is a much more humanely obtained material, as used rather commonly as we know in the production of many products. It seems this has been the case for a number of years. Apart from the tools to work the leather from hides, there are many tools used in butchering meat, even beyond knives used in hunting, another topic which has remarkable similarity to this.

As agreed, the sensitivities toward discussion of weapons used in warfare seem to be quite acceptable in spite of obvious dynamics.
Only ignorance would support the notion that there is fairness or humanity in war, there is only survival. We study the arms historically and objectively, ASIDE from the reality of purpose.

Tit For Tat?
 

Well, lately Killer Whales have been attacking sailboats in the Bay of Biscay and offshore of your home buddy. ;)

https://www.sciencetimes.com/article...y-portugal.htm

I have held back as long as I can, there WAS this huge white whale........Melville (1851).

Based on the sinking of the ship Essex in 1820 by a rogue sperm whale.

Well guys, sometimes the whale wins. You know the joke :eek:.

Well noted, sometimes the hunters become the hunted, case in point, the 'lions of Tsavo'.

Confirmation from the New Bedford Whaling Museum,
this is NOT a whaling knife, but a 'round knife' for working leather, just as Richard noted.

-finis-

I am also offended by the continued murder of whales, "ABOLISH THE WINDMILLS!"

:confused:.

The noise generated by wind turbines has been attributed by some as the cause for whales beaching themselves. On a more serious note these "wind mills," produce infrasonic sound waves that have been proven to be detrimental to humans and weaponized by various countries.
One step forward, two steps back.

Duly noted ... and applauded :cool:.

leather knife
 

Nice video of one of these knives in action for those who have never seen one.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/eBPVH...?feature=share

Thanks very much I.P.
When I acquired this, I was thinking of Eskimo 'ulu', which are of course often in wide variation, but in a number of references showed examples which were virtually identical to this.
The deeply stamped makers mark suggested possibly a British or American item, and again several references showed similar crescent bladed knives as whalers flensing knives of 19th c.

All of these combined led me to believe this example (OP) might be one of these. However most flensing activity references showed larger bladed tools and often on poles.

Finally I contacted a Whalers Museum in Massachusetts which noted my example was not a flensing knife and likely indeed a leather working tool.
In degree disappointed, I still like the item as probably a late 19th to early 20th knife for leather work as shown, and interesting in that respect.
Thank you for sharing this on how it was used.

Both of these illustrations are shown as whalers knives online, both claimed 19th c.

The top one looks like the handle is a socket.

Hi Jim. You might want to consider using the word Inuit (Inuk for a singular person) as these days the term "Eskimo" is considered at best archaic and at worst derogatory.

I agree, which might well indicate this was indeed intended for flensing. The bottom one looks more like a leather working tool, despite what the online description may have been.

Oops! I know better, sorry David, thanks for the good catch. Kinda embarrassing.
As noted in the thread, the bottom one is in fact leather working as I discovered when reaching the Whalers Museum. Good lesson in how reliable online searches can often be.
The other with obvious socket for shaft is clearly for the much larger flensing tool....I was simply drawn to the shape.
Never stop learnin' !!!

David,
In retrospect, I have previously been aware of the issue with the term 'Eskimo' used as a collective term for these tribal people of the north (apparently claimed to involve peoples across the circumpolar regions from Siberia to Greenland), but it would difficult to refer to such a broad spectrum of diverse groups collectively without a common term.

In the 'old' days, I had a close friend from Alaska (Nome), who was of this heritage and always referred to herself as 'Eskimo'. Actually I had really not been aware until recent years there was any problem with this term.
In the references in which I saw the lunette type knives described as 'ulu' (I hope this term is correct and proper) it is noted to be used by Eskimo women. There seem to be a wide variation in shapes for these, so perhaps these might be attributed to specific groups or regions. In those cases where such data is known, I would agree classification might be better applied using specific rather than collective terms.

While I had heard of this 'pejorative' issue with the Eskimo term, I admit I did not understand it, I found this link online written by an individual who is Inuit. He notes that Eskimos are not Inuit; and vice versa. He also notes that in Alaska the Eskimo term is used when collectively referring to the Inupiag and Yupik. He notes the Eskimo do NOT like being called Inuit, and this goes back to issues in the colonial period. ...so certainly the Inuit do NOT like being called Eskimo. I think there may be the 'rub'.

The pejorative angle derives from an apocryphal tale regarding some distortion of a word by French trappers in translation, but that suggestion is questioned as the Eskimo term appears to have predated colonial contact and of course likely different meaning than the pejorative result from the French version.

While my original post here was of an item thought to be an Eskimo 'ulu' knife, which through useful responses revealed, to my disappointment it was something entirely different.

Here we have continued and valued opportunity to learn, and as I noted, I had heard about the 'Eskimo' term issue, but did not understand it , probably because of my past experiences with the friend I noted, as well as some extensive travel in the Pacific Northwest where I have a nephew. There I never encountered any specific discomfort with use of the Eskimo term in various elements where the topic arose.

Researching this further, I wanted to share this link to this site to add some different perspective, which I think would be useful in better understanding this issue.

Again, I would like to thank you for bringing this to my attention. I always try to take care not to offend others, and with this I can be better aware of the boundaries in discussing matters in this anthropological context.

Best regards
Jim

https://www.aaanativearts.com/alaska...o-vs-inuit.htm

Yes Jim, you are correct that Inuit is not the best term to describe ALL these Northern people. I misspoke on that front. The term Eskimo was often applied to three main groups of people, Inuit, Yupik and Aleut.
I am not surprised that there many indeed be some Yupik, Aleut or Inuit who may use or at least not be offended by the term "Eskimo", just as there are Native American that have no problem using the word "Indian".
I believe that whenever possible the best thing we can do is to name a people as specifically and as closely to the name THEY use for themselves as possible. Even amongst people that do fall under the general description of Inuit we find various tribes within that call themselves by specific tribal names.

"Greenlandic Inuit generally refer to themselves as Greenlanders ("Kalaallit" or "Grønlændere") and speak the Greenlandic language and Danish. Greenlandic Inuit belong to three groups: the Kalaallit of west Greenland, who speak Kalaallisut; the Tunumiit of Tunu (east Greenland), who speak Tunumiit oraasiat ("East Greenlandic"); and the Inughuit of north Greenland, who speak Inuktun.
The word "Eskimo" is a racially charged term in Canada. In Canada's Central Arctic, Inuinnaq is the preferred term, and in the eastern Canadian Arctic Inuit. The language is often called Inuktitut, though other local designations are also used."

Though i certainly would respect an indigenous person's choice to call themselves an eskimo, that name, though debated as to actual origin, cannot be shown to be the legitimate indigenous name for the tribe of any of these arctic indigenous people.

-

David,
Thank you so much for detailing this and explaining so thoroughly!
It seems the reference I had seen this 'ulu' knife in used the 'Eskimo' term, and as I had no geographic point of reference used that term not thinking of the pejorative implications.
You are clearly well versed in this area, and this has been very informative. In my future references to these peoples, I will certainly be more careful.
Thank you again,
Jim

One other interpretation of the term ...

... More etymologically, there is a scientific consensus that the word eskimó derives from the word ayaŠkimew, which means "a person who ties up a snow racquet" and is related to "husky" (a breed of dog), not having a pejorative meaning in its origin.