Help with talismanic inscriptions?
 

Do you recognise or have any ideas on the meaning of the talismanic inlay on this Moro Kris?

Michael

Could we see some overall pictures? The handle?

Sure,

Do you have any ideas of the meaning?

Michael

Hi Michael very nice handle does it have an scabbard


Ben

Hi Ben,

No, sometimes you can't get it all... ;)

Michael

A wild guess
 

Seeing the whole blade could it be a fire breathing mythical creature. At the handle there are what might be scales then a decorated snout? and what could be flames. Do Eastern dragons breath fire or is that just European dragons which are always terrible creatures?

Hi Michael after a close look I don t think this is talisman inscription
It might be decoration they use like floral motifs

just a gues


Ben

Hi VVV,
I am wondering whether the central 'column' of symbols... maybe some form of pictogram.....the bottom one does have a 'resemblance' to a human form.....a possibility if there are no 'definative answers'. :shrug:

PS I am assuming that it is read 'sword upright' .....bottom being 'closest to hilt'........nice example..by the way ;)

Thanks all for your input!

Ben, sorry but I disagree that floral motifs are decorative only.
It's one of the oldest, universal symbols of the cycle of birth/life and death.

Tim, maybe the scales are eggs (Naga eggs)?
I don't know but your dragon description gave me some ideas...

Katana, I haven't thought about it as a pictogram before.
Anyone knowledgeable about Moro culture who has seen pictograms used somewhere else within this culture?

Michael

Eggs. An interesting point. To me the egg shape is so distinctive you do not have to be much of a craftsmen to communicate the idea. Also the arcs that could be eggs, are placed in an ordered pattern that look very much like scales of either a reptile or fish. I am not at all sure but to me the art work on this blade is to be seen and easily understood. What may seem a jumble of simple marks to our eyes given our educated/channeled views of communicating may make it difficult to read a very simple message. Also there could be the tendancy to see far more than is actually there. I could also be talking out of my ///// :D .

Could fire breathing be from the relatively long European influence in the PI. ?

The swirly stuff does not have to be fire. It could be clouds and then we have a flying dragon? There is limited space to show all this information and I do not think we are looking at a weapon made for the court, so to speak.

another thought
 

Just thought if the arcs near the handle are scales then they face the wrong way tail to head. This may have been done for convenience of pleasing design?

I don't think the egg/dragon ideas are going to fly... ;) :rolleyes:

There seem to be only few people left who can read the old Moro script. AFAIK it's not based on pictograms as, for example, Chinese script.

Considering the cultural setting, I wouldn't expect to find obvious graphic references. Repetitions are much more likely to be tied to some numerological symbolism IMVHO. I'd guess that the inlay of this kris is also mainly talismanic but getting even approximate/tentative guesstimates for just about any questions regarding these and their underlying symbolism seems to be very difficult. :(

Regards,
Kai

I agree but even if it's difficult let's give it a try.
Maybe it will take a couple of years, maybe we will never find out?

Michael

Hi,

Consider:

- krises are mainly attributed to the 'Bangsa Moro', inhabiting the Southern Philippines and mainly Muslim.
- up until and during the Spanish conquest the main script used by the peoples of the Southern Philippines was Jawi/Kawi/Arabic, which is not pictographic .
- the only other major script is Eskaya, which is also not pictographic.

IMVHO, anything produced after the Spanish conquest is very unlikely to have scrtpt other than those mentioned and of course, Latin. Thus, the inlay is most probably mere decoration.

Having said that, I must admit that I do not recognise the symbols, if that's what they are.

Cheers.

Pangeran Datu,

Thanks for your input on the possible scripts, maybe some more possible than others?
When looking at talismanic inscriptions and symbols I think we also have to consider the locally practised magic, in this case within "Folk Islam", where symbols from earlier religions, like Hinduism, has survived together with later symbols from Islam.
As well as local symbols that is difficult to trace to any religion.

That's one of the reasons why it's so interesting to study talismans on weapons where a lot of older beliefs quite often appears mixed together with the symbols of the present religion.

Michael

Hi Michael

........Ben, sorry but I disagree that floral motifs are decorative only.
It's one of the oldest, universal symbols of the cycle of birth/life and death.

Michael[/QUOTE]...........

I mean that they are not talismanic signs floral motifs


I mean something like this

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=peduang


To me talismanic signs are witchcraft signs to give you power protect you
in indonesian it is called goena goena in Suriname Winti in Jamaica or Haiti Voodoo it is mostly based on
The Use off white and black power

And I see nothing off that in the symbols off the keris
There are books that have those symbols.

Ben

Ben,

Please compare with Dayak tattoos and mandau inlays.
Some meanings are lost, some are documented and most of the Dayak today don't know the meaning of them. And several of those who do doesn't want to reveal it to outsiders. But they all have, and originally had, a meaning except only being decorative.

I have experienced the same when travelling in other parts of SE Asia.
First there is no meaning or belief in the old traditions. But once you really get to know people, and they discover that you are seriously interested and don't belittle their beliefs, it's everywhere.
The same could of course be experienced in Sweden and Holland even if more is forgotten here.

The floral vine motif is quite often seen on Moro Kris blades.
Usually ending with a "tongue" or trisula.
For me that's quite obvious symbolism but maybe I am biased because of my interest in religions and old beliefs?

Michael

Very interesting debate.... it is a shame that alot of tribal and indigenous symbolism has been lost.....it is a clear indication of the 'erosion' of culture, heritage and identity as they become ( pressured ??) to be 'more civilised' :(

As Michael already pointed out: it's very, very difficult to assess how much really has been lost. While in most societies worldwide a considerable part of the population has lost intimate knowledge of the "old ways" this doesn't mean that there are not some who still hold it dear and pass it on. However, if it gets down to core beliefs/knowledge/skills in Asia, you basically have to marry into the (right) family to have a ... chance of becoming privy to it - in just about any other constellation one can consider oneself lucky if being considered worthy for some of the stuff you're looking for. Exaggerated? Not that much... :cool:

Regards,
Kai

You hit it right on the head...

Hi Michael I did not now that you also Interested in old beliefs
next visit overhere I will show you very special book about the subject
WALI SANGA the javanese secret teaching contains also writings for the silence power and most off the javanese ghost and devils (try to learn Dutch I have a lot off books about the subject)

I now an grandson off an Iban headman (he is living in the Netherlands)
he went back there in the 80 to an special fest no white man invited
and did see there Iban s with fresh tattoo's so some old things never lost

But things that give you power have to be given by an doekoen or shaman

not by just someone that put old symbols on an weapon that is what I mean

( I also never heard or read that sudang moro krris are made whit the same intension as the javanese one if you know a book that says different let me now I like to read it )

like this you can make a kris a nice one but it have no power

But if an kris made by an special man that can put power in it you have an special keris

You now that some old krisses have still power

Like that madjapahid keris I have that have been proven by a few people also one guy that came 2 years ago from Indonesia to the Netherlands
He was invited by the orginisation TONG TONG I think it was on the PASAR MALAM IN DEN HAAG ( Ruud Greve was also there and a lot people did bring their stuff very interesthing)
that can feel if there is any magic or power in subjects from Indonesia
he did feel that there is still very strong power in the keris or chunderik

It does not always be a weapon that have power could be anything


Ben

Hi Ben,

Look forward to read the Wali Sanga book.
I have heard about it and even if I don't speak Dutch I can understand most of it by now with some deduction and imagination.
And I have participated, as the only outsider, in exorcistic rites in both East Kalimantan and Negros, Philippines.

Of course Filipino weapons are also believed to have metaphysical powers within them.
Actually I had some of my weapons "spirit-checked" around 9 years ago by a Filipino friend who has experience in those matters. He doesn't like that I collect old, and even worse - used, weapons for that reason. ;)

Michael

Hi Michael I will translate some for you if you want it is from old javanese

books

I had only some bad and some good expirience with my own krisses when I had a collection more than 300 krisses


Ben

Thanks Ben,

Michael

Hi Michael,

You may, or you may not, have noticed that we have had some kind of the same discussion about Indian weapons.

The subject is very interesting, and I believe that the decoration of weapons means far more that the decorative side. The problem is, that I can’t prove it at the moment. There is a very strong symbolic force in this – and it is very ancient. Although the meaning may be forgotten, the same signs seem to be used. The signs can/will be different, and when designs half forgotten, different artists starts their own interpretation – but it is still there.

It may interest you, that Dr. Ann Feuerberg, who joined the excavations at Marv, is studying the symbolic value of the decorations on hilts and blades. She is one of the first scientists, whom to my knowledge, has take a serious interest in this subject.

Jens

Kan du ha' en god dag:)

Hej Jens,

I wasn't aware of the Indian weapons discussion.
Could you please PM me the link?
Very interesting about the research of Dr Feuerberg.
On Indonesian weapons some research has already been done, mostly on Mandau and Keris. But there is of course a lot left to be researched.

Michael

Hi, sorry i made a mistake about the name, it is Dr. Ann Feuerbach – sorry Ann.


Jens

Michael do you have the Stone book ?

At the keris part is a story that tells how that the Dutch people could tell if an kris brings luck or brings bad luck

Ben

Sorry I've been away - 'puter problems.

I have been looking through research and can only take a guess at some of this. They could be moon symbols with some other meaning or a special plant motif.

That being said, I agree with Kai 100% (good job Kai).

This thread is fascinating!!! and although considerably outside my usual field or range of study, the topic is widely applied to virtually all forms of ethnographic weapons, as Jens has very aptly noted. As he suggests, material culture often survives and as we know is collected, with the motif and symbolic decoration losing the original meaning as the items leave thier original environment.
I think it is great to see the outstanding knowledge shared here working together to develop plausible and likely explanations concerning this example and the topic overall. It is exciting to learn more on this as it certainly is beneficial to incorporate the same perspective and theories in all aspects and theaters of ethnographic weapons study!

As an admittedly 'untrained' eye on Moro weapons, I would like to nonetheless suggest that to me the motif seems to overall follow the contour of the blade, and the outside or border motif does seem decorative in its linear and repetitive form. The figures within the border however do seem to reflect some symbolic possibility, with some possibility of anthromorphic forms as has been mentioned. It does seem to me that the semicircular motif in the 'border' may have, as suggested, nagan connotation.

I very much look forward to any response on these views, as well as the development of this discussion as I would like to learn more on the symbolism of these weapons. Its great to broaden horizons!! :)
Thanks very much guys!!

All the best,
Jim

Looking in a few books on the art of regions surrounding and relevant to this sword. I think it may not be too far fetched to see the design as a stylisation of a Naga/Dragon which is indeed common to this part of the world. It may be so stylised to be inoffensive to a more strict Muslim environment. This dramatic stylisation of fantastic beasts and sky motiffs is common in other Islamic art forms. Most easily brought to mind is the carpet, incompassing much Islamic design. I will try and add more after my tea.

I may be losing it here but
 

This design on the sword may be even more simple and obvious if you are a practicing Muslim or rather one familiar with the Islamic artistic cosmology. I am most certainly not. However one could see the design in two parts. The swirly part nearest the tip is a cloud which symbolises the sky, the portal to heaven. Heaven being one of several layers of gates in the celestial world. After heaven there is another portal the sun gate the divine light and leading to the throne of god.
The part nearest the hilt that I suggested was a dragon may still be so. But I now think it is most likely a representation of Eden. What I saw as scales though upside down, is the land/earth and from that the strange pattern is the garden of exotic flowers. These elements of Islamic iconography are not hard to find or I could have just lost my marbles :eek: :cool: .

post script.

The centre or field of a this Kashmir carpet/prayer rug illustrates this quite well but there is a lot more room for the designer to explain themselves. The clouds are cearly seen outside the dome {mirhab} the garden in this case a tree and known in the carpet world as the tree of life.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...appy/ax008.jpg

Never thought of that......something to consider. :)

Hi Tim It s nice the tree of life but is it talismanic does it brings you power in a battle .

That s what I don t think so I don t think it is talasmanic

but maybe I am wrong so I like to know



Ben

Battle and paradise have been linked by many people and cultures throughout history. To me this imagery on an Islamic weapon is pretty much the same as a sacred heart or other device/talisman on a European saber. The imagery fits the concept of cultural belief. I believe to be killed in battle, the warrior goes straight to paradise/heaven.

The tree of life/central pillar/axis mundi is a very important both archaic and universal symbol for comparing different religions according to the leading authority within this field - Mircea Eliade. In short it's the center of the world, the connection point between the heaven (where "the Sacred" reside), the earth (humans) and often the underworld. Compare Jacob's ladder, Gunungan etc.

Seeing the scales/eggs as clouds, symbolising heaven, is maybe a key to this riddle?
On the "figures" inbetween an interpretation could be that they somehow represents something dualistic, like + - + -.
To have an idea what it could be of course you have to know more about the local myths and beliefs than I do at the moment. Maybe if somebody knows something about local creation myths a theory could be developed? An example could be if f.i. at the time of creation some divine force created two men and two females from where all humans origin?

Not knowing if this is the case a hypothesis of this inlay as talismanic could be:

At the base of the Kris (heaven, the Sacred?) is something of a "battery/power source" that transmits some kind of energy (the + - + -). This energy is transformed into a (earth - vegetative, creative) force (birth-life-death) that is pointed at an enemy in battle to powercharge this Kris.

If the + - + - represents male and female ancestors then we have a metaphysical "nuclear missile launcher"? :D

Michael

The scales/eggs are the garden of Eden/paradise and the clouds the sky and gateway to the divine light and throne of god.
I am turning into a carpet salesman :D . They do help explain Islamic iconography. With this Turkish example the same message is behind a much more formal arrangement. The garden/paradise is a single plant in a pedestal bowl. Kashmir to Turkey is nearly as far as Kashmir to PI echoing the spread of Islam. I bet if members look they will see more of this stylised motif on other weapons.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...appy/ax009.jpg

Tim,

As you have noticed I got inspired by your tree of life interpretation of the inlay.
But I am more hesitant to the "backwards symbolism" of sending yourself to heaven from earth with the help of this sword.
I find it more probable that the owner wished to survive and the sword to send the opponent to hell instead. :D
From what little I have been exposed to Filipino culture I have seen more of positive thinking than negative thinking of the outcome of battles.
In the case of Juramentado I have the impression that the blades they used were not as expensive and high status like this?

Michael

I am sure it would be a positive thing. like all mottoes on weapons. God is always on your side. :p