PI Kris for ID and Comments
 

Been lurking for over a year. Thought I would post some photos and go through my collection one by one and see what I can learn about them.

This is my first kris. I bought it somewhere around 1980 or a little later.
Spotted it in a bucket of canes and umbrellas at the mall. It was visiting antique dealer day. :D

I'd like to know everything you could tell me about it. All comments welcome.
I've got my thoughts but want to here from you folks. Please be detailed if you will.

Thanks,
moose

Looks rather nice to me.

Observations
 

I'd say that this is an older blade but I'm not quite certain .
By Catos book this would be of Mindanao origin .
The gangya seems to have been broken and re-shaped .
The dress is fairly new except for the cockatua which appears to be of old marine ivory .
The asang asang/s are missing and were most likely not included in the remount .

Agree with Rick. 20th C. remount in the Maranao style of an older blade that has part of its gangya missing and no asang asang. Old small kakatua. Scabbard is 20th C. also.

Ok,
Thanks for those thoughts. Here's a picture of the design in the end , down by the point.

Do these represent a trident? Supposedly to protect the owner??

How about some of you other Moro guys? Chip in if you would please.

moose

I have another kris I wanted to post for comments and Id. Should I post it here or should I start a new thread??

Forumites suggestions?

moose

Edited
Cancel that , post it here . :o

Moose, I would not call that a trident, but part of the plant "okir" motif used on these blades. Also, by the look of the mounts on the hilt, it looks like you have bands of silver and copper with a gold wash (or at least worn gold over copper). I agree with the other assessments already mentioned.

Battara,
Thanks. Later on I'll post some pics of a dagger I have that I believe has Solomon's square and some Tridents on it.

Yes it looks like silver and Gold over copper. Is that called suassa? sp? or something like it.

moose

No. Swassa (swaasa, suassa, suaasa, etc.) is not a layer of gold over copper but a mix of gold, copper, and sometimes other metals to produce a 7-9K gold and change in color from a pinkish hue to orange, red, or even green (rarer) hue.

Kris #2
 

Here's the second kris I bought. Again a number of years ago. Got this one at a gun show. It was laying on the table in a big pile of mixed blades

I liked it intially because of the diminutive cockatoo that reminded me of my first kris. I also liked the deeper arrowheads and what looks like a gold maker's mark.
It was a lot smaller and no sheath. The blade is 18" 22 3/4" oal. It has a forging fault mid blade on the left side.

Comments Please. :)
moose

Very nice kris. If youve seen any of the other kris threads that exploded with huge number of posts, this is one of the infamous archaic aka. 18th Century kris. It is a very nice example, and the dimmunative cockatua may be orginal, though it does seem like the hilt was lengthened at some point. At least Bob Cato in his book Moro Swords, feels that the 18th century/archaic style originally had hilts of dimmunitive size and pommels. Anyways, try wading through the other origins of kris, is this a moro kris, etc... threads and decide for yourself if this style is truly Moro or not. I still feel they are, with some interesting Brunei conntections, but then that is just my opinion, others have been very voiciferous to the contrary. Anyways, very nice kris, me likey a whole lot.

Thanks Fredrico,
I have come to appreciate it more over the years. It's faster, just seems more practical in the hand. :D

Here's a close up of the deep incising near the tip.

moose

nice one, moose! have you tried etching the blade?

Seeing some of the inlay near the top, I wonder if it was at one point fully inlaid. But then, I suppose that could be said about many Moro swords with engraving, were they inlaid at one point, and polishing/etching/corrosion caused the grooves to shallow out. I know on my one kris with some remains of the inlay, many of the grooves seem as if they have shallowed out over the years for one reason or the other. Particularly when part of the inlay pops, then corrosion has a way of building up underneath making the rest want to pop out. Battara would have some great insights into inlay, as he has actually redone inlay on some swords. And if you are in the inlay commenting mood, what did you use to re-engrave the grooves, a graver, scribe, diamond tip engraver for a dremel, etc...? Ive been contemplating redoing the inlay or a sword, but many of the grooves have become to shallow, and need to be re-done.

I had to make my own gravers out of tempered steel, but small enough to fit into the grooves and re-ingrave the channels. Very time consuming process. And it is not just the depth but the angle of the cuts that is very important.

Battara,
What are your thoughts about the golden metal inlaid on this kris?
Maker's Mark? Isn't it odd, the one piece inlaid in the long channel?

I think this is what Frederico is refering to when he wonders if the whole thing had been inlaid at onetime.

Spunjer,
No, I haven't tried etching it yet. I have done some lime juice etching on some daggers I'll be posting later.
I have purchaced some of the etchant Radio Shack sells and read up on previous threads. But I'm not ready to try something like that on this beauty.

Going to practice some more on some of my "less dear to my heart stuff" first.
Don't want any major mistakes. :D

moose

Moose, you have a wonderful piece there (envy, envy, grumble, grumble....). I know that some engraving on blades are too shallow to have been inlaid. On your piece I am surprised to see inlay. This may raise a whole new set of questions for me and for the field if inlay were common in the engraving of these blades and just popped out. I do not think this is a maker's mark (especially since Filipinos/Moros/Indonesians did not use maker's marks) but perhaps a talismanic design. I think there could be a good argument for your whole blade once being inlaid seeing the pics you have posted. The material is a little harder to discern from the pics, it could be gold, brass, or tarnished silver (which can get a yellow-brownish oxidation depending upon the grade of silver and environmental chemical exposure). It looks to me that the whole channel was once inlaid and that most of it popped out.

By the way, etch the puppy and see what surprises are in store for you. ;)

Now Jose, if more Moro swords originally had inlays, then that means more collectors are gonna need to send you their swords for restoration ;)

Anyways, I know what you mean about the shallow grooves. On my one kris with some inlay remaining, in many spots where the inlay has popped out the engraving is so shallow it is almost invisible. Id like to say oh this is the un-inlayed part, but then there is the matching star on the left that still has inlay. I suppose we could get inlay happy re-doing every sword with engraving, but it does make you wonder. Corrosion or on purpose.

Now no one has mentioned the fiber wrapping on the second kris.
I would think that this could not be as old as the blade and ivory cockatoo. Maybe re-wrapped somewhere around or just before WWII?

Any thoughts on the material? What was commonly used? Jute?, palm fibers? Some other local fiber bearing plant? If around WWII maybe hemp?

moose

Like your choice in blades. As strange as it sounds both blades may be 18thC, the first from Mindanao (Maguindanao?), the second Sulawesi (my opinion). The first is trying to emulate the style of the second. I have 2 kris in the second type, one is very much like yours, it has a oval tang 3/8 x 5/8"; I would not be surprised if yours did not have the same. (as a side note, mine has a ferrule made of Carabao horn). The original wrap may have dozens of things. Ratten, different grasses, bark cloth, or silk & ratten wraps. If you decide to remove it, it would be nice to see a picture of it, naked. Bet the stirup was made of the same metal as the blade. Does the blade strike you as a bit different than the first blade, like the second has a higher nickle content. The stirup likely started out about 4.5 x .25", split down the center for about 2.5", hammered nicely to hit around the blade, filed & welded back together again to fit over the gangya.

Bill,
The second blade is always brighter. Never dulls or tarnishes anymore than it is. Would that mean to you that it has a higher nickle content?

I always thought the first blade was old. The arrowheads were just not done as elegantly. From my limited knowledge of smithing producing the second blade would mean your on a whole different level of smithing. Either blade was done compently. :D

I appreciate your post. :)

moose

3rd Kris Just the handle
 

This Kris handle was an E-bay buy around a year ago.. Thought I was sneaking something out from under you guys watchful eyes.

Alas, the blade it was on was very dissapointing. The luks were very sharp, not the smooth graceful luks I was hoping for. (weak auction photos) And someone had taken it to the grinder and blued the points of several luks. :eek:

But the handle I thought was very nice! I'll put it up for comment. I'll get a pic or two up of the blade also so you can see what I was talking about. Who knows with a sanding and etch I might be wrong. :o

I also just won a blade a couple of days ago hoping maybe it would be a good match for this handle. I'll post it too when it arrives.

So tell me what you think,

moose

Moose, I guess its up to you about the hilt. My guess is the hilt you just posted was made after 1960. Traditionally the hilts would be upgraded. To me the first kris seems odd, old blade, old kakatua, & then the rest is likely 30 years old or so. To me, a hundred year + blade should keep to the of 1930 or older dress. Think its what you feel is good, as long as nothing gets damaged, you can change it again later.

moose 49017? :eek: :eek: :eek:

the blade will definitely match that puhan more than the one i, err, the seller added with the blade. you should get it by tomorrow or friday at the latest :).

here's a weird one: when i first acquired that blade, i placed it in the oven just to warm it up so i can strip it with whatever oil or grease it has on. when i took it out a very strong scent of coconut product was coming out where the gangya and the blade connects. why would that be?

Spunjer, You cooked the Jen!

LOL! i hope not!













...aren't they suppose to be invincible anyways?

Ah! now it's getting clearer.
 

"moose 49017? :eek: :eek: :eek: "

Spunjer,
I went back and took a look. Brazilian Ju Jitsu Fan..... :p :p
brazjitsfan...I get it now! :D

Looking forward to seeing what I got.

Now we both know. :cool:

moose

Remount questions
 

Battara,
Or anybody else that wants to chime in. :)

This is all premature because my new blade hasn't arrived yet. But I know the asang asang/s are missing on it.

If the handle above fits well with the blade how would I go about fitting new asang asang/s to this handle?
I presume forge the ends down thin and long so they slide into the handle along with the tang.
But that's just a guess. :confused:

I dunno maybe it's not done with this kind of handle? I have the pitch for setting the blade into the handle.

moose

bump to the top.

moose

Spunjer, the smell you were smelling could have been pitch burning between the gangya and blade. Something that has come up after working with a number of Moro Kris, is that rotation of the gangya may have been a big concern (I personally wonder if that is the true purpose of the asang-asang to prevent rotation vs securing the blade to the hilt). Anyways, most kris that have a good seal between blade and separate gangya, there is a thin layer of pitch securing the two together (ever wonder why the separate gangya just doesnt fall off a bare blade). It is normally well protected from heat, due to the thickness of the gangya and that portion of the blade, but enough direct heat will get it to bubble.

Moose, not Battara, but in my experience with dis-assembled kris, many asang-asang tails (for lack of a better word), when a separate strip than the asang-asang (eg. a copper tail), have been tied to the tang, and inserted into the puhan. I have also seen some with just long enough tails that go just under the ferrule, not much further (not tied to the tang). For one piece asang-asang, usually the iron ones from Mindanao, those tend to go along side the handle, and then hidden by the handle wrap. I have seen two piece asang-asang done similarly, but in most cases they were after market changes, and not the original configuration (would be easier to do than removing the whole hilt). Then again there are always exceptions.

Here is an example of the asang asang tail running up outside of the hilt , notice that it also acts as a tensioning device to keep the silver wire wrap tight .

placement of asang-asang tail
 

hi everyone,

i do not know if this has been discussed earlier. Is the placement of the asang-asang tail an indication of whether a kris is modern (aka tourist) or antique?

someone said to me that authentic krises have their tails wrapped on the side of the puhan and not inserted with the tang into the puhan. for the purpose of the tail daw is to hold the handle inseparable with the blade. if the tail is inserted along with the tang then it does not serve its purpose.

any comments?

I dont think asang-asang placement would be a good indication of age, perse. Though it would be a good sign of originality. It is much harder to put the tails (having done this) on the inside with the tang, than trying to wrap them under the hilt. This requires complete removal of the hilt, vs Ive seen many under the wrap jobs that were done with the hilt on. I just dont buy the whole they are there to secure the blade to hilt. Similar attachment is used for kris, barong, kampilan (much bigger blade more torque), yet why the kris the only one with extra support. Also, aside from the iron one piece clamps, many asang-asang are rather flimsy, very thin tales, and often the clamps themselves are not solid, but rather a thin stock that has been repoussed out and then filled with pitch. Also, we can note the durablity of blades that have lost their clamps. However, of course we could explain that clamps on modern pieces are just vestigual tradition, eg. the new pieces dont need em just have em because the early ones did. However, examining my own early kris, hilt security isnt the big problem, but rather rotation. Though these are just my observations from having handled a number of kris that had been taken apart.

Zonneveld's book has a old kris on pg 16 that has the stem of the stirrup go into a horn hilt. The tang is retangular and the stirrup appears to have some age but could have been a replacement to go with an updated hilt; but it seems to be somewhat of a puzzel. If rotation is a problem, I think the blade flying out of the hilt would be next. I think the second example that Moose posted is a kris clearly made to have the stirup (& is also a slashing sword), where with some "18thC" kris, I think it is a add on. So, you've got rotation, seperation of hilt & blade, seperation of guard & blade (may have been a large factor, if the spirit were to get out), & it would even add to the strength of the hilt when striking. I'll add one more: I believe the origination of the kris was for beheading, its earlist form was with a small round tang; if you used it in a sawing manner you would likely pull the hilt right off the tang. Up-grading the tang to the "robust" round tang solves a strength issue but the stirrup would still be needed for the "pulling" motions. Development of the oval & then the retangular tang would still have the "pulling" issues; but now it has fully developed from a thrusting & beheading sword to a slashing sword & new benefits are found. So I would have to say that with all the benefits of the stirrup, it was bound to become traditional.

Almost forgot, you also have the pulling motion (originally a thrusting sword) of removing the sword from a person. If already dying, & wearing armor, someone impalled grabs the blade, the sword may have needed some effort to remove. Sort of like Magellan's very last problem.

I wanted to comment on the 2nd Keris Moose pictures. It is a really nice sword and I would say there is a good chance that the center section of the blade might have some interesting lamination. These blades are often of sandwhich lamination where you have a central core of laminated, twist core or mechanical damascus steel with high carbon edges. Here is a section of blade from a piece in my collection that also has the diminutive kakatua pommel and the 18th century style blade. The pattern that came out in the central panel is pretty neat.

Here's another example of what may be hidden . :D
Pardon the poor photography . :o

Regarding the asang-asang tails, I agree with Federico. I have observed the same thing. In fact, some asang-asang have been removed at a later time or replaced depending on the rise of status of the owner. One exception I would mention is the type of asang-asang that is of twisted silver - so far I have seen these only on 18c Moro kris.