Balinese Keris Help
 

Hi, Could anyone help me determine age /authenticity of this keris?
Thanks.

Hi Jacob, welcome to the forum. Nice Bali keris. Authentic? Certainly. Looks to me to be mid -late 19thC, but it could be a bit older. Nice silver diety hilt. Most of the stones look real on there, including low-grade ruby and sapphire, and some other semi-precious stones. The mendak (hilt ring) looks like a newer addition and the "stones" there may be glass. The metal here is probably brass.The metal sheath cover appears to also be silver and is nicely repoussed. Nice blade as well. It could use a etch and restaining to raise the pamor pattern. All in all pretty nice. I certainly wouldn't mind owning it. :)

Thanks, Nechesh. This is the nicest one I have. Here is another one. I'm a little suspicious about this one, as the blade looks too new and perfect.

Jacob, i would say that this second one is newer than the first, but it is not a new blade. Could be early 20thC up until the 1940s, but i doubt any newer than that. This quality of keris doesn't really appear in post WWII Bali. Could you show a close-up of the gandik area (where the carved elephant head is)? The hilt on this one is also nice, but not like the first. I suspect this one may be silver plated brass as opposed to solid silver.

The hilt did not come with the keis. It had a relly crude wood one.

I would say with David that silver plated brass is involved. Both keris hilts look silver plated brass or white brass to me and newer. Nice work. The sheath of the first might very well be silver.

Both hilts do have greenish (like corroded copper) residue in recesses, more visible on the second. Does it mean they are both modern repros?

There is a balinese keris offered on e-bay right now:

(deleted , active auction)

The hilt looks like a combination Cecanginan and Gerantiman. Is it modern also?

Whoa! Jacob...forum rules, no posting of active auction item...:eek: .

Sorry, I'm new here. Is it legal to post pictures from the active item without the link?

They are still making keris there. Repros? - yes and real modern ones too. I think yours are not repros but modern ones. Repros are for tourists and are obvious in their horrible quality. Yours are not for the tourists and seem to be better crafted.

Regarding posting pics, it is better to post pics of "dead" auctions.

As Jose points out, the distinction between modern and repro can sometimes be a tricky one. One must consider that while certainly at a wanning point, the keris is still a living art form. I tend to agree that your first hilt is perhaps modern, but not what i would call a repro. The second is of a lesser quality.
These hilt are both in a very traditional form, but there are neither Cecanginan nor Gerantiman nor a combination of the two. I believe these are Bayu hilts, a representation of the god of wind.

Jacob, check your private message box. You've got mail. :)

I wonder how old is my avatar.

I don't think i would feel qualified to put an exact date on it. It certain shows age and has a nice patina, especially on the belly. :) It is a very nice carving and not a figure i can recall seeing exactly as such before. I love the figure's right hand position. Is the mendak that is with it gold w/rubies or is it just glass? It's always hard to tell such things w/ internet pictures. If they are rubies i would say they are fairly high end ones. Nice hilt regardless.

Hi Jacob. As Battara points out, it is better to wait for an auction to end before linking it or referencing it. However, photos can be posted if no auction reference is evident.

You might want to read this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4

Welcome to the forum. :)

Maybe It's A Stretch
 

Might Jacob's ukiran be a Balinese Ho Tai form ?

Now that the auction is over and it's legal to post: has anyone
seen a hilt like this before (combination Cecanginan and Gerantiman).

The nice hilt looks like a Tapukan style. Original by Balinese carving. Combinated with brass. It completely hilt.
I was bidding too for this keris at eBay, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MESO:IT

.... but I lost it and have no lucky :)
Beautiful Balinese keris. Congratulations, Jacob.

Regards,
Mans.

You know I looked at this piece and it appeared to me to be new work .

Would you please give me some reason about new work, Rick ?
In my eyes, it is beautiful balinese keris with nice pamor. Not to old, I think made about CA19th and it has good take care by the owner before. Looks so different between new iron with old piece.

Regards,
Mans.

Sometimes you just get a feeling .

I'm not saying that it isn't exquisite work or not worth the money paid .

It just looks new , the blade appears perfectly smooth yet it isn't polished .

The wood work on the ukiran looks softly carved rather than sharp carving that is worn with age and it seems ill fitted to the metal cap .

The pendokok may be older as it seems to show some staining .

The metalwork on the ukiran seems just not quite as good as it should be considering the overall impression this piece should make .

There seems to be no patina present on most of the piece .

These are just the observations of a Westerner and should be taken as such , an opinion .

Hi, Rick,
Sometimes we just got the feeling, but actually we should know about the blade, ironwork and pamor.
Often we interested about the keris because we look that a keris used an nice old scabbard and accesories like pendok and hilt. But actually we bought a new keris or common keris which have no special characteristic.
Or, often we try to justifying that the keris is new just because it have a completly or intact ricikan like greneng, ron dha or kembang kacang, but actually this keris is old and has good take care before.

This keris which last posted look so nice for me. The blade look made by good ironwork. I think it made about middle to end of CA19th, not older, but it is not a new made. The scabbard look handsome ;) and used an old pendok from silver. About the hilt and silver fitting, I don't have any idea how old it is :confused: But I think it is an original Balinese hilt.

Westerner or easterner whose interest about keris look the same for me.
They have many reason and knowledge how to give opinion about it. And I try to learn more from all of them :)

Best Regards,
Mans.

Up to you !

mans ,.. don't argue..
...thts useless....

let people say whatever they wanna say,,,..


im out....

I agree Mans. I'm so uninformed when it comes to keris, that I eagerly read everyone's opinions. :)

Sang, I don't think Rick and Mans were arguing. It seemed like a respectful disagreement and discussion. Personally, I was hoping you'd come along and talk about your keris too.

It was quite a beautiful piece.

Sang , I'm sorry if you are offended by my observations , I will stand by my opinion though .

If this forum is for polite agreement only and not sharing differing observations and opinions then it is worthless and should be closed .

Hi guys,

I think Jacob still waiting for some good opinion, did you Jacob ? :)
I think Jacob have many nice Balinese keris, specifically keris which posted first. :rolleyes:

Regards,
Mans.

Mans ,
How do you know that Jacob purchased this piece ? :confused:

Dear Rick,
I think it is just small detective play :)
I saw in eBay that the winning bidder is : jcbxly from USA

and "Jacob" is the one who posted in this thread and asking about this keris..... so :rolleyes: I just supposed that "JCB" must be "Jacob" ;)
I think that is not too hard to figure it out ;)

To Jacob:
Sorry if I was saying about that. I hope you don't feel scruples about my suspicion :o

Till now, I don't have Balinese keris :o , so..., if someone posted the Balinese keris, I feel comfortable to hear the discussion about it.

Regards,
Mans

Hi Mans ,

Here are a couple of examples of Bali keris that I have owned .
Yes , the top picture has been flipped .
One of them now belongs to another forum member .
Please forgive the poor quality of the pictures . :o
Feel free to discuss .

lovely blades :) ...what is the top handle made from horn?

Yes , cow horn I suspect but I'm not sure ; parts of it are very translucent .

Nice Balinese keris, Rick.
Balinese keris with complete Ricikan put into old original Balinese scabbard and hilt. Good ironwork, isn't it ?

I still learning about historical of Bali. Since Bali have a first kingdom, till Majapahit kingdom went to Bali, escape from attackting by Demak Kingdom, and the relationship between Bali and Mataram Sultan Agung, Bugis and Malay. I hope, from histories of Bali, I can know more why the Balinese keris have a characteristic (Jawa : Pasikutan) like that ; longer and more wide than Javanese and Bugisan keris, made from good iron :confused:
Perhaps, any members can give me some input about it ?

Actualy, often I need to exchange my Javanese keris with one of Balinese keris :o Bu I'm not yet.

Regards
Mans.

Condolences would be more in order. Here is what it actually looks like.
Anyone might have suggestions on how to restore torn silverwork?

I WOULD SUSPECT THESE KERIS WERE MADE WITHIN THE LAST 60 YEARS THE BLADES MIGHT BE OLDER BUT THE FITTINGS ARE RECENT. HAVING SAID THAT I WILL SAY THAT THE CRAFTSMEN OF BALI ARE DOING A GOOD JOB AND THE GOOD RECENT STUFF IS WORTHY OF COLLECTING. THE STONES ARE AS MENTIONED REAL BUT COMMON LOW GRADE SPECIMINS THERE ARE RUBYS PROBABLY STAR TYPES WHICH ARE COMMON BUT MOSTLY FLAWED THE GOOD ONES ARE RARE AND EXPENSIVE AND ONLY TO BE FOUND ON THE TOP QUALITY BALI KERIS. THERE APPEAR TO BE TWO WHITE MOONSTONES, 3 RUBYS AND A BLACK STAR SAPPHIRE FROM THAILAND IN HIS BREACH CLOTH WHICH WILL HELP YOU IDENTIFY SOME OF THE OTHERS. THERE ARE SOME BLUE STAR SAPPHIRE AND SOME OTHER STONES I CANT BE SURE OF. THE MEDAK HAS WHAT APPEAR TO BE GREEN STONES POSSIBLY JADE OR IMITATION IMPOSSIBLE TO TELL FROM PICTURES. THE SILVER WORK IS MUCH BETTER ON THE PENDOK THAN ON THE HANDLE, THE VERY BEST QUALITY BALINESE KERIS HAVE BETTER CARVING AND STONES BUT WE WON'T BE SEEING MANY OF THOSE AS I THINK THEY ARE MOSTLY MADE ON COMISSION FOR PEOPLE OF WEALTH. I THINK IT IS A NICE KERIS AND WOULD BE GLAD TO HAVE IT IN MY COLLECTION.

THE KERIS ON EBAY ALSO LOOKS RECENT AND THE HANDLE IS A BLENDING OF TWO TRADITIONAL BALI TYPES AND LOOKS QUITE NICE. THE CRAFTSMEN OF BALI ARE VERY TALENTED AND ARE TURNING OUT SOME GOOD WORK AS WELL AS SOME INFERIOR EXAMPLES BUT IF YOU CAN GO FOR A VISIT AND HAVE DEEP POCKETS, YOU CAN FIND SOME EXCELLENT KERIS AS WELL AS OTHER WEAPONS. I SUSPECT SOME OF THE RARE WEAPONS OF THE OTHER ISLANDS IN THE INDONESIAN SPHERE ARE BEING MADE THERE, OR PERHAPS MADE IN OTHER LOCATIONS AND SHIPPED THERE FOR SALE. BALI IS A WORLD MARKET FOR FUN AND SOUVINEERS AND ALL QUALITYS AND BOTH THE REAL AND FABRICATED ANTIQUES CAN BE FOUND THERE. THIS KEEPS IT INTERESTING AND IS NOT A BAD THING BUT AS IT IS EVERYWHERE ELSE, THE BUYER MUST BE CAUTIOUS.

Jacob, it looked fine in the eBay pics. Is this damage that happened in shipping? Was it insured? Is the seller accepting any responsibitlty? Perhaps you can send it back to him fior repair.

Hold On A Second !
 

Not so fast boys ; check out the fifth thumbnail down on the original link.
This pendok was already broken ! :eek:
Look at all the glue in the other auction pictures .
No doubt it came apart in transit , correct ?
I'd try to put it back together with epoxy and touch up the rip line/s with a suitable silver paint .

I'm so sorry Jacob . :(

I would think that the Seller should have at least mentioned the break and repair in the description (most do) but this is an ethical fine point .. I guess ... :rolleyes:

Live and learn .

Bump for edit .

Agreed Rick. Photo #5 certainly shows damage, but i assumed it was just to the pendok and just on that side. None of the photos suggest damage that extreme. It all comes back to the first law of collecting i guess; Let the buyer beware! :(