Cathey, like you I was pretty excited with Ibrahiim's suggestion on the 'H' possibly representing Hounslow!
I also looked back into material on Hounslow, and found that this would not have corresponded with contemporary Hounslow practices in markings.
While for a time I thought that Hounslow did not use the 'wolf' or 'fox' markings, I found contrary evidence in that they did indeed use the familiar running wolf chiseled mark.

Since Hounslow had ceased by the 1660s, it does not seem that such practice would accede into the Harvey timeline, nor would the smiths of Hounslow have used the contrary figure of a noticeably tailed fox as used by the Harvey's. I have personally always felt that the fox used by the Harveys was perhaps a 'nod' to the Hounslow smiths in a rather commemorative sense, as the reputation certainly would remain known then.

Thank you so much, as always, for the wonderful examples you continue to post here, and for keeping this thread going!!

Fernando, excellent suggestion on the compellingly plausible interpretation of SOLIDEO GLORIA . Often the literal interpretation of words, terms and phrases can be rather difficult to understand properly in the mindset of our times, but such dimensional placement into the context and times of the weapon really makes a difference!

Salaams Cathey, I think you are right...There is no defined link to join Hounslow with the running Fox or the H for that matter. There are swords from Shotley Bridge that carry both the Shotley Bridge wording and the Running Fox which is also not Chrystal clear since even Harvey Withers calls IT a Running Horse !

On analysis Hounslo or Hownsloe or Hownslow swords carried entirely different marks often based on the Me Fecit script and variations of it. I can find no proof of marks of Hounslow of any kind of Fox...

Clearly then SH and H were two marks inside the Running Fox outline of the Harveys and also Harvey and apparently a HAR and a VEY under...as a block inscription with no fox at all.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I have found a most interesting note on http://www.mocavo.co.uk/The-Victoria...2-3/704590/320 which may have escaped scrutiny... This old volume places many things in perspective...

Ibrahiim,
Thank you so much for always adding these interesting and astute observations and especially these remarkably pertinent links!
These additions perfectly illustrate that researching these weapons and the intriguing elements of their unique histories often involves forays into most unexpected and obscure sources.
These are the kinds of details which truly add to the dimension of our understanding and appreciation of these arms!

Best regards,
Jim

Salaams Jim, It is a pleasure to take part albeit as a virtual observer in this masterclass originated by Cathey. Your input is an enormous inspiration to all Forum members especially those who enjoy, as I do, the potential for research ...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Scottish Black Watch 42nd Highland Regiment
 

Hi Guys

I have posted one of my three Black Watch pattern baskets early in this thread, so I will now post the remaining two, starting with this one.

Date Circa 1750-70 (18th Century)
Overall Length: 92.2 cm (36.3 inches)
Blade length: 76.4 cm (30.1 inches)
Blade widest point: 3.121 cm (1.2 inches)
Hilt widest point: 13.3 cm (5.2 inches)
Inside grip length: 11.3 cm (4.4 inches)
Marks, etc: The Pommel is marked with an F over 20

Description
English basket-hilted backsword for highland regiments (42nd Royal Highland Regiment), c1760 with 30.2” blade 76.5 cm. Overall Length 36 ¾ “ 93.3 cm. A Scottish military basket hilted backsword issued to the 42nd Highlanders, circa 1750-1770, straight single edged fullered blade. Regulation hilt, panels pierced with triangular and circular openings. Truncated conical pommel (marked with an F over 20) with spherical button, wire bound leather grip.

This hilt is typical of those manufactured by Dru Drury Sr, London, however as the blade is unsigned this cannot be confirmed. Whilst this pattern of basket hilt is usually regarded as having been produced by Jeffery’s or Dury, it is probable that Jeffery’s and Drury sub-contracted for finished guards, pommels and blades from Birmingham and assembled them at their London Workshops utilizing their own grips and grip coverings.

If anyone has any thoughts on what the F over 20 signifies on the pommel I would be most grateful.

References:
BEZDEK, Richard H. SWORDS AND SWORD MAKERS OF ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND Pp341
DARLING, Anthony D. SWORDS FOR THE HIGHLAND REGIMENTS 1757 - 1784
NEUMANN, George G. SWORDS AND BLADES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION pp71, plate 30.s & pp142 plate 241.S
Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Auction Autumn 2001 9-10/10/2001 Lot 100

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Salaams Cathey, May I ask is the letter an F or could it be an E ?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

It seems I have seen these kind of letter/number inscriptions on others of these British basket hilts. Naturally my inclination would be that it would likely be a rack number as these were to other ranks. While it is a thought to possibly be production number or maker/vendor number as these components were outsourced usually, I doubt something in lots like pommels would be so marked.

This military pattern is of course most interesting, and the producers named are the most typically seen. I have seen these hilts with what appeared to be a M1788 light cavalry sabre blade, and wonder how these might have been issued in the latter 18th century with curved blade.
Flank company perhaps?
Eljay, any thoughts?

Hello all,

a friend of mine send me this picture of a basket hilt, around 1m total Length and the blade around 3,5 CM wide.
That's al info I got, found in France, the hilt does not look familiar to me, any thoughts anyone ?

Thanks beforehand

Ulfberth

This is a most interesting example Ulfberth!
In addressing the hilt alone as the single image is all there is to go on, it has a most 'garrison' look to it, that is much like something for other ranks in the Scottish units of the British army. All appearances are to around third quarter of 18th as these 'tall cone' pommels seem to be closest to (G7, Mazansky). In Mazansky (p.147) there is an example with this type pommel c.1770, and it has the same rudimentary feel to the seemingly 'mechanical' looking piercing and decorative motif in the guards.

The placement of a grommet like open disc in the guard on this example seems to recall these kinds of open discs in the example referenced.
What is most curious is the odd 'shield' like piercing in one guard (loosely recalling Mazansky, family B , iii).

While this is stated provenance from France, there does not seem to be any reason to assume this was used by French forces, nor expatriate Scots of any diaspora post Culloden. As noted this hilt seems far later in the century than the 1746 Culloden event, and a hilt probably intended for British army regiment use would not have likely been in France.......not unless this was something from the Napoleonic campaigns.

I cannot find an exact match, but the style of the work recalling the piercing of Scottish hilts, but in a more austere manner, seems to fall into the kind of regimental manner of the Jeffries/Drury type hilts of that 18th century period.

With any luck, we might have the opinion of Eljay, whose experience with these kinds of swords is well established.

Hi Jim,

Thanks for your comment, the 'garrison' look makes sense since the cross guard plate has the style of the Pattern 1796 Heavy Cavalry Trooper's Sword. I've looked but I can't seem to find a similar hilt anywhere.

kind regards

Ulfberth

My pleasure, thank you for sharing this!
As I cannot see the hilt entirely, do you mean the bottom of the hilt (stool) which does seem to have piercings similar to those on the M1796 heavy cavalry sword?
The spirally gadrooned grip on this seems atypical as well, and more of the 'smallsword' or court sword type of the period.
It is hard to say whether this is an authentically working life armourers work or more modern assembly without having it in hand, but if it is indeed aged in accord in all components it could be of Napoleonic period.

All best regards,
Jim

Hi Jim,

this is the part I mean , I hope to hold the sword in my hands so post more pics.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

Wow, that is of course most definitely the disc hilt, and an interesting mélange of components, but solidly done. I have seen these kinds of assemblies from various sword types in frontier instances in colonial places such as Mexico, but not with basket hilts like this. In the colonial cases these were in largely rural areas where quantities of swords or blades etc were not readily available, but in the Scottish and English areas as well as on the Continent this was certainly not the case.

Here are the other pictures, If someone has more information on this kind of hilt it would be most welcome.
Total length 104
Blade width at the base 4 cm
No stamps or regiment numbers.

Thanks

Ulfberth

Unusual base to Basket hilt
 

hi Guys

I have gone through all of my baskets and have nothing with a base like this one. If someone out there has one similar, please post for comparison. Very nice sword though and extremely unusual hilt configuration overall.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Thanks for your comment Catey,
I'm having concerns about the way the hilt is riveted on to the guard plate, and I could nor find an other basket hilt made this way.
For the moment this remains a mystery and I'm wondering if this is a military assembly or a later composite sword.
kind regards

Ulfberth

When I saw Ulfberth's sword, it set off bells in my head - but where had I seen that before? Figured it out. Wood's book has one, and so does Mazansky.
Mazansky p.188 has a hilt just like the one in Ulfberth's photos. Differences: pommel is nicer on Ulfberth's, and the one in Mazansky has screws instead of rivets. Ulfbeth's also looks like the shield (Mazansky's terminology) has been modified.
I'd post a scan, but I don't have a scanner, so I'll leave that to someone else.

Mazansky notes a possible French connection (not the Gene Hackman version), with possible manufacture dates of late 17-early 1800s, but also notes that this remains to be proven.

I need to post the rest of my baskets in this thread.

--ElJay

Hi Eljay,

thank you for pointing this out, If someone could take a picture or a scan it would give an idea.
In the meanwhile I found a similar basket hilt in Museo delle Armi Antiche di San Marino .
This one has a blade with a blade with a double fuller but the pommel and the hilt are identical .

kind regards

Ulfberth

Mazansky p.188
 

Hi Guys

Rex took a photo of page 188 (see attached) and certainly looks extremely similar. I agree with the view that his one is probably of French manufacture perhaps for a Scottish exile hence the unusual hilt configuration.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Hi Catey

Thanks for posting the picture of the Mazansky book, I think this is as close as it gets.
We have seen three almost identical hilts and in all three the guard fits on the base plate pierced and attached by either a riveted method or or secured by bolted nuts.
The one in the Italian museum does not have these bolts and seems riveted to.
I think we can conclude this is not a composite but the way this type of basket hilts were constructed.

Thanks all for you help!

Kind regards

Ulfberth

I agree with Ulfberth, this is compelling to see three examples similar of what seems an anomalous form of these basket hilts, showing a certain degree of consistency in the guard piercings and other components.

What is most interesting is the note as referenced in Mazansky (p.188) which suggests (as per Stephen Wood formerly of United Services Museum) that these may have been fashioned for Jacobites in exile in France at end of 18th c. While not proven, this does seem a highly plausible suggestion.

The blades which appear on these as far as I can tell appear of mid to latter 18th c forms consistant with post Culloden cavalry dragoon swords. These, whch were often if not typically of German mfg. would have been quite available in France in these times.

The curious piercings seem to be representative of many used on the Scottish hilts traditionally produced (the unusual 'shield' form) along with some which do not as far as I know occur on them, but if not mistaken, are among mysterious alleged Jacobite symbols. Case in point, the five point star, which I believe I have seen referred to as Jacobite, but its direct symbolism unknown. It may have been Masonic, as connections between Scottish and French lodges are well established, in many cases I believe transcended many political issues.

The striated tall cone pommel seems atypical but most aligned with Mazansky typology (IIIb, p.27), on two of the examples Ulfberht shows and the low dome with capstan form in the Mazansky reference somewhat aligns with form shown in his groups, but lacks the rounded base.
The integral lip around the tall cone examples is notably unusual in my view.

At this point, I am wondering if perhaps there might be references outside our sources which might have reference to French versions of Scottish basket hilts? I do not have the Aries series, but possibly there might be reference there?
Beyond that, possibly some French types of sword motif might carry some similarities to these?

While the Jacobite cause effectively ended at Culloden Moor in 1746 with that tragic defeat, naturally that idealism did not, and was carried with its followers fleeing the wrath of the Hanoverian machine. It certainly seems likely that these followers carried on in France, along with Prince Charles, though no further attempt was made to regain the throne.

This is one of the most interesting aspects of studying these arms, to have these often poignant stories told by them, and to preserve them .

Hi Jim,

Thanks for you comment especially under the difficult circumstances.
I am very interested in the Jacobite symbols , there even seems to be a connection to 17th and 18th C Freemasonry , any comments or hidden knowledge that can be revealed would be most welcome.

kind regards

Ulfberth

Black Watch Basket hilt - Jeffries
 

Hi Guys, this is the last of my Black watch pattern swords

Date: Circa 1750-70 (18th Century)
Nationality: Scottish Black Watch 42nd Highland Regiment
Overall Length: 96.8 cm (38.1 inches)
Blade length: 82.8 cm (32.6 inches)
Blade widest point: 3.5 cm (1.4 inches) fuller runs 63.9 cm (25.2 inches)
Hilt widest point: 16 cm (6.3 inches)
Inside grip length: 12 cm (4.7 inches)
Marks, etc: Nil

Description
English Black Watch basket-hilted backsword for highland regiments (42nd Royal Highland Regiment), c1750-70. Straight single edged fullered blade 32” blade 82.8 cm. Overall Length 38.2“, 96.8 cm. Although unmarked the hilt pattern suggests the Maker to be Jeffrey’s of London. Regulation Jefferys hilt, panels pierced with triangular darted and circular openings, line engravings included in panel decoration. The three branches of the guard are riveted to a ring which fits around the truncated conical pommel with spherical button, leather grip wire missing.

General Remarks
Slight difference in Guard construction indicates this sword was probably supplied by Nathaniel Jefferys London. No maker, retailer or Military marks found.

When I compare this sword to my two others by Dury the guard is distinctly different. In referring to this as Black Watch I am really referring to the pattern, this sword could have been used by other regiments at the time.

Given the variation in quality I have seen in these swords I concur with others that it is likely they were manufactured either whole or in part by other cutlers beside Drury and Jeffries. All three in my collection have quite substantial and well-made guards, however I have seen others with guards that felt almost like tin as they were so light and poorly made.

References:
AMERICAN SOCIETY OF ARMS COLLECTORS: BOOK OF Edged Weapons. Plate 4 pp209
BEZDEK, Richard H. SWORDS AND SWORD MAKERS OF ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND Pp341
DARLING, Anthony D. SWORDS FOR THE HIGHLAND REGIMENTS 1757 - 1784 published by Andrew Moebray Inc pp13,
NEUMANN, George G. SWORDS AND BLADES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION pp71, plate 30.s, pp42 plate 243.S
Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Auction Autumn 2001 9-10/10/2001 Lot 100

Cheers Cathey and Rex

This exact hilt is shown in Wallace, "Scottish Swords & Dirks" (#42) with the same guard plate piercings and outline, pommel, etc. and with a blade marked Jeffries (Nathaniel, London, worked 1768-79). There is the GR on the blade.
While no 'pattern' officially designated (first known date for such was 1757)and the first contractor records were in 1759, it appears that Black Watch must have had their own regimental pattern pre 1757 (as noted in reference re: mutiny 1743 where some men noted as having 'non regimental' swords) .


These seem to have developed by Jeffries (London) and Dru Drury of Birmingham from earlier government contract swords based on the Glasgow type hilts (possibly SImpson Glasgow?)/

Brass hilted Pattern 1798 Offices Basket Hilt
 

Brass hilted Pattern 1798 Offices Basket Hilt
Date: c1798
Nationality: Scottish
Overall Length: 38 ¼” 97.1cm
Blade length: 32 ¾” 83.2 cm
Blade widest point: 1.1/2” 3.7 cm
Hilt widest point: 5 ¼” 13.5 cm
Inside grip length: 4 ¼” 10.2 cm
Marks, etc.: J J Runkel Solingen (only the letters J J R and gen are clear)

Description
Basket Hilt-Scottish-c1798-Highland Officer broadsword Brass hilt
Highland infantry officer's broadsword; the type carried by Scottish infantry regiments during the Peninsula War and Battle of Waterloo against Napoleon's forces. The single fullered broad sword blade is marked J J Runkel Solingen, has been ground at some point which gives it the illusion of being watered. The hilt is brass hilt is constructed of solid plain panels and has remnants of past gilding. The grip is fish skin with brass wire. Provenance : William Kearney Collection (Adams Auctions Dublin 1990)

General Remarks
The 1798 Pattern was the first attempt by the British to standardize sword patterns for the Scottish regiments and was very loose in some respects, with blades coming from Solingen (Prussia / Germany), England and Scotland, clearly with officers mounting the blades from their existing pre-pattern. All highlander officers were wearing this sword at Waterloo. Scottish regiments from loyalist families as well as some rearmed rebel families who had sworn allegiance to the king, were fielded in the war with France. Officers were armed with these swords as a concession to their fiercely defended Scottish heritage.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Scottish Private Purchase Basket Hilt
 

Hi Guys

I am now running into my more contemporary basket hilts, although this is one of two private purchase examples I have that are pre-date the 1828 Pattern.

Nationality: British importer, Scottish Sword with German Blade
Date: Circa 1800-1808
Maker/Retailer: J J Runkel
Overall Length: 39” 99 cm
Blade length; 33” 83.8 cm
Blade widest point: 1 ½” 3.9 cm
Hilt widest point: 5 2/4” 13.7 cm
Inside grip length: 4” 10.1 cm
Marks, etc.: J J Runkel Solingen

Description
SCOTTISH STEEL BASKET HILT SWORD: 33" double edged blade marked RUNKEL SOLINGEN to both sides with areas of light & dark staining & short fullers; very good hilt & pommel with grey finish; fish skin grips bound with woven silver wire.

General Remarks
From around 1778 to 1808 J J Runkel imported many thousands of swords and blades from Solingen for the British Market. From around 1800 the spelling of Solingen changed by the omission of the ‘h’ between the ó’and ‘l’.

At first glance this sword appears to be a typical regimental 828 pattern basket hilt, however when you put this sword alongside a more traditional 1828 the guard has a number of differences. The first is the blade, these pre-pattern or private purchase baskets often sported the early Runkel blades common on the brass hilted 1798 pattern swords

Looking just at the hilt construction, the plate of the side guard is scalloped and decorated with circles and lines as apposed the regular pattern heart decoration. The outer shields have only four hearts and small circles as opposed to the eight hearts on the regular pattern example. The lobes on the side guards are not joined as in the 1828 pattern.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

European Basket Hilts
 

Hi Guys

Whilst responding to this thread by Fernando [URL=http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=195638&posted=1#post195638]
I came across some additional examples of European Basket Hilts.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

French Logistic Support 1745
 

Salaams Jim, In reference to your details about The French in terms of Basket Hilts...I note from Scotland (A New History) by Michael Lynch page 335 refers. Quote" Charles's expedition was financed by a combination of private venture capital largely put up by *Aeneas MacDonald. an expatriate Scot with a banking house in Paris, and credit borrowed on the security of the Sobieski Jewels, a legacy from his mother Clementina. It paid for the modest arsenal of 20 field pieces, 3,500 assorted guns, 2,400 broadswords, which was loaded on two ships berthed at Nantes in June 1745. More than half this arsenal and the 100 Marines aboard the Elizabeth failed to reach Scotland for they had to turn back after an encounter with an English Man o' War off the Lizard, and only the Du Teillay reached Arisaig on 3 August". Unquote.


This illustrates a conduit through which weapons were entering Scotland and moreover the potential for French and probably German swords being supplied. It throws into the mix broadsword variants from the entire European region and goes some way in showing the vast variety of weapons that even today we are confronted with.

*For more on the amazing story of Aeneas Macdonald see http://www.yourphotocard.com/Ascaniu...20Archives.htm

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Absolutely excellent Ibrahiim!!! Thank you so much for that entry.
That is perfectly substantiated support for the volumes of arms with these expatriated Jacobites in France. I'm always amazed at your tenacity at finding these extremely important references online.!

All the best
Jim