I have just finished reading the most recent posts to this thread.

I am a little disappointed that such ill informed comments are being made in respect of origin, development and spread of the keris.

Yes, I have written on this, but I do not ask anybody to accept without question that which I have written. Setting aside my own work, there is adequate evidence available to point anybody who can read in the direction of discovery for themselves.

Regretably this evidence is for the most part contained in books that are only available in large or specialised libraries; it cannot be accessed with a mouseclick. What this means for those who do not have access to such libraries is that they must avail themselves of material that is available on the net. Much of the material available on the net in this field draws upon these previously mentioned library sources.

Possibly a little time spent in research may be more valuable for some of us than the attempted support of insupportable opinions.

google can work wonders.

This thread is getting more interesting, and for the same reasons similar discussions in KampungNet got thrown into the Garbage Bin.

Methinks, rather than the forumers try to prove/disprove sepokal's thesis, the burden of proof should rest on him.

He has made some interesting claims about the Islamic origin of the keris, along with others -- such as the last Majapahit kingdom being based in Kelantan. He now needs to show us evidence to back his claims.

That is after all the foundation of learned discussion.

I can assure you all that this thread as a whole will not find it's way into any "garbage bin", though there is always the chance that offensive or highly disrespectful posts could get deleted. So far nothing written here qualifies for such drastic measures and i trust it will remain so. :)
I agree with Rahman. Since the commonly accepted wisdom as i understand it does not seem to support Sepokal's theory it would seem logical that it would be up to him to present convincing evidence to the contrary. Good luck with that. :)

Salam to all keris afficionados,

If every single theory needed to be backed up by scientific findings, archaelogical artefacts etc, then I am afraid I cant do that. You see, I am only a high school graduate, my English is so bad (I even had a tough time trying to understand some of the posts here) etc etc. However, I came from a culture (or rather 2 cultures) that has little written tradition. What I heard in the past and what I am still hearing (I am still learning the traditional way) are materials obtained from oral tradition. That's why when I suggested that keris could also be of Aryan's origin, I was expecting somebody to comment so that I can learn from others' perspective, not only from my gurus. So I hope I will not be asked to provide scientific evidence please :) .

Oops, I did it again....
 

Dear Mr Rahman,

May I ask, since when was it that historian claim absolutely that the origin of Keris is not of Islamic origin? They merely deduce or rather in Scientific term, infered that Keris originated from Hinduism, through Candi Sukor. Now, all this was based on them studying Javanese Keris. Are we that naive to not know that the Malays too have their own version of Keris during those times? Or is it just because, we want information to be placed on our lap rather than to do research and dig deep?

This forum is not a place for me to unveil all the knowledge that I've gained through my many years of travelling and meeting with many people and reading books. I've given the information. I've got nothing to prove to anyone, at all. There is no profit for me to reveil those information to you. Nevertheless, I did reveil those information to you, long ago, but ironically, you want me to prove it. On a normal circumstance, I would, but now, I think, I won't. Do us a favour Mr Rahman, this information was known to you long ago. Have you made any research on this (plus doa) or do you expect things to just fall onto your lap? The burden to prove about Keris originated from Islam is never a burden to me now Mr Rahman. I'm passed that phase, long ago. I'll leave the burden to you and others, I guess :)...or rather, I would advise, just stick to what you know, Keris and Hinduism... :)

Learned discussion requires you to do research Mr Rahman from what might be, to what actually is.

Oh by the way, do any Javanese keris have Dapor Sepokal like that of Bugis? Look at the shape, does it remind you of any "huruf" from Al Quran? :shrug:

Allah Hafiz and Regards,
sepokal toh putih

p.s
Erm, I don't intend to do any more forum, so thanks. Penangsang...hehehe...stop mentioning my name...Hana...you know where to find me...hehehe ;)

No one is asking anyone to do any field research. You can state any theory that you wish, but if you want it to be taken seriously i am afraid that you must provide at least some credible sources to support your theory. This is not necessarily "scientific" evidence, it is merely providing viable support for an idea that you expect other interested and often knowledgable students to take seriously. I could just as easily suggest that the origins of the keris lie with visiting space aliens from the Rigel 5 star system (yes, it's the dreaded Space Alien Theory :D ). Without providing any support for this far-fetched theory it is no more or less viable then your own. :)

Well thank you Sepokal, for you time here. Perhaps you have told Rahman things in the past, but really you have told me and others here absolutely nothing but empty theory. Nor have you answered my repeated request for translation of terms. I like to think that i have an open mind and frankly i don't know enough about keris (or anything for that matter) to be all that certain about origins or anything else. But i certainly am not about to buy into any theory merely on your's or anybody else's say so. Proof will never come, but if you are unable to make your theory seem logical to me why would i choose to accept it. And if you don't care if anyone gives any credence to your theory the why do you bother to state it to begin with?
You say this forum is not the place to unveil your great knowledge. Well then, what are you doing here? Why are you wasting our time then? Thank you for you contribution, however meager it might have been and may you find the right place where you great knowledge will be unquestioned and you can always be supeior and correct. We obviously are not worthy. :rolleyes:

Dear David,

This is yet another classic case of East Vs West. As I had written earlier, in Malay or Javanese culture for that matter, knowledge is to be sought thru certain customary ways - we cannot simply go to a guru and ask a lot of questions. OTOH, in western cultures, you are very encouraged to ask a lot of questions. So, you know how difficult it is to gain knowledge (esp if it involves mysticism, spirits etc) from a traditional Malay / Javanese guru. This is exactly what I am going thru now as I live in the very same culture, hence I am in the forum - to exchange knowledge. There's so much to learn in a very limited life span. Life is just too short.

Mr Sepokal,

Your wish will be my command. I promise not to quote your name again without permission, but I hope you reconsider stopping your inputs here ;) .

Mr Rahman,

I do not want to be drawn to yet another old debate from another forum. If you could check again in the kampungnet thread that you had dumped to the bin, I believe you would understand what Sepokal (sorry for using your name again) had said about the possible Islamic origin of the keris.

Methink, Persians (Aryans) were known to be among the first who used damascene pattern forging of weapons. They also used wavy swords - but to accommodate the local environment, the wavy damascened swords had to go thru evolution, hence the keris we see today. Of course, this theory is not absolute, but logical.

Actually, we have covered this sometime back... do read this article, written by Mr Alan Maisey... [ link ]. I suggest bro Sepokal, you'll do likewise... do give it some thought, afterwhich, we can continue discussion if you like. ;) :)

Bro Sepokal, as for the "Majapahit" / Sajen keris examples... do check it out [ here ].

Bro AlamShah,

I read Alan's excellent article a few times since at least 2 years ago...and I think it's very intelligent observation, moreover, the writer is himself an empu. I'll go thru it again, and again.....

What I have to offer is the possibility of another origin, or maybe even parallel origin of the keris. Please consider this, people of Nusantara are strong followers of Sunni sect, but what's the deal with cleaning up (merawat) pusakas esp keris during 10 Muharram every year?

Good day everyone,

I apologized if I have created the hassle for referencing but I find them useful. I believe some articles in the internet are not 100% true. As such, this forum may be of some help. Gone were those days where old generation relates tales of their ancestral history to passed down to the future generation? Everyone is so busy nowadays and I’m in that sorry situation right now. How I wish my late father kept a journal for me to get some insight.

Frankly, I like the visual information exchanged in the thread “Majapahit Revisited” between Ganjawulung and Pak Alan. I personally feel that factual evidence shown through books is much appreciated for I may not be able to source them here in Singapore.

Sepokal – After our email info sharing session on Malay Keris philosophy, I thought I could dig some info from you to share in this forum as well. But it is most unlikely possible now due to the above reasons. I hope you will continue your research on Malay Keris and their history. I will be honor to vet through your draft manuscript before publishing them. You will receive my utmost confidentiality upon the frank opinion given. Good luck on your journey in search of wisdom and truth, my friend!


Kind regards,
Hana

P.S - Penangsang, you, high school graduate?? You're jesting lah.. :p

Please Penangsang, one correction:- I am not and never have been an empu.

I am a person who has made a number of keris, and I have been taught how to do this by an empu.The fact that this man passed much of his knowledge to me does not make me an empu.

I too do not wish to drag what transpired at KampungNet into this forum. But would I logically dump good evidence into the Garbage Bin?

What we had were similar assertions as found here, but no supporting evidence. I was willing to accept these as folk traditions, but sepokal had not divulged which region/state his informaiton had come from, so I cannot even make any reasonable classification.

Methinks that's the crux of all that we have -- make believe. If you believe it is so, so will it be.

Let me leave it at that...

I guess we mere mortals are not worthy of the arcane knowledge of the Grand Masters.

David -- I always thought the keris was from Mars, and swords from Venus. We have aliens too here n Singapore -- both legal and illegal. :p

To the contrary, i do not believe this is a case of East vs West as all. That's a cop-out. Afterall, you ran into this very same problem with this discussion on a forum which is maintained and supported mostly by Easterners. I do agree that Westerners (especially we Americans :o) live in a "fast food culture" and want everything now (or even yesterday). And we see how this has effected our approach to spirituality especially with the commercialization of Eastern thought through so-called "New Age" spiritual movements. HOWEVER....this debate that is causing trouble here (as it did elsewhere) is not about the attainment of some great spiritual wisdom. I agree that sort of knowledge needs to come slowly, with much hard work by the aspirant on the path to spiritual enlightenment. There are never any easy answers there or easy paths. But what we are debating here is a question of history, plan and simple. A theory of origin has been presented which flows against the general concensus of the history of the keris. This does not make it necessarily wrong, but it does mean that many questions will naturally be asked (by both East and West) seeking supportive evidence for this contrary theory. To act as if one holds such information, yet to refuse to release it is to me nothing but the height of arrogance, unless of course, there really is no support for this theory at all and it is all just empty hot wind. Sorry Sepokal, i do not see the "irony" in asking someone to give some proof for their controversial theory. You say "there is no profit for me" revealling this information says much about you. How about gratitude and respect of the community? Certainly if you can prove your theory it would be a benefit to the entire keris collecting world. Where is the "profit" in not releasing the information you claim to know?

Not as logical as you might believe. AFAIK all of the earliest keris were straight blades, not wavy and they had no pamor patterns to speak of. If Islamic Aryans brought the keris to Malaysia and Indonesia one might wonder why they didn't make wavy damasced blades from the start.
I may also be wrong about this since it is not my area of study, but isn't Damascene blade work a completely different process from keris making? :shrug:

Greetings keris experts,

I’m looking at what are the after effects of post Tsunami in this thread; challenge one self to prove that given comments are true and relevant. I really see no point continuing with the non-stop harping of that someone. Let’s continue and move on….

Sepokal quoted: “Cracks for Malay Keris on certain location symbolises the amalan (rituals) that was fused into the keris until the metal decided to show in term of "isyarat" (signs) through cracks.”

I’m wondering if this concept applies to some Javanese keris. What does a crack signify? Has it got to do with the spirit of the keris? I have one Javanese patrem that has two separate cracks at the sorsoran area. I’m not sure about the significance of it. I sure hope someone can confer sound knowledge in this matter.

Ganjawulung – I’ve spotted one sentence in your reply on the “Patrem” thread dated 23 May 2007 which I find very interesting: “Spiritual attitude surround kerises. That's the "bobot" or inner quality of the keris world. Something that is neglected by mostly modern people”. Is it possible for you to elaborate?

Thanks & regards,
Hana

P.S – The term “Amalan” can be referred to habitual or religious rituals.

In Javanese keris term, people call it as "pamengkang jagat" (the world stretcher). What does it signify? I think Mr Boedhy Aditya knows better than me about this. But, in keris making term, a crack is actually a fail in forging process. (Alan knows much better than us about it). And people take the positive side of the fail, by the positive meaning of it.
It might be not a correct expression of me, in English. (Sorry for my In-glish, Indonesian English). What I wanted to tell you is, that modern people usually prefer to care the outer appearance of kerises. And not the "inner quality" (spiritual meaning, and so on) of his keris or kerises...

Ganjawulung

In the supposed words of the great psycho-analyst Sigmund Freud, "...and sometmes a cigar is just a cigar." ;)
Cracks in the blade of a keris are forging flaws, but as Ganja suggest, people like to make the best of any given situation so stories start up to give special providence to error. The bottom line, of course, is what you choose to believe. If you believe a crack in your blade will brimg you good fortune it probably will. :)
Hana, i don't believe there has been a Tsunami here. This thread remained much too civil and cool headed throughout (thank you all) to be granted such a devastating title. No one is dead and the seas are relatively calm. But i agree that we should move on. And thank you BTW, for attempting to explain a few of the terms that others left untranslated. :)

Dear Hana,

From the Buginese & Javanese's perspectives, the cracks are just forging flaws like Pak Ganja & David had said earlier. And as you mentioned, to the Malays, it's different ball game altogether :D .

You know what they (the Malays) say, the cracks are actually the channels that your fragrant oils can seep into the body of the keris, thus feeding the spirit...... ;) .

David, re the cause of the "problem" I faced in another forum, it's nothing like this at all. Contrary to what you believed, it was caused by them insulting my personal belief / ways in treating keris that contained spirits. To them, the traditional ways (including smoking your keris) was blasphemous to Islam. These ppl could have misinformed you via pm etc thus your infering that I was the trouble maker...

No worries Penangsang, i have made no assumptions about who was responsible for the problems on the other forum and frankly don't care. My concerns are with what takes place here and so far i have no problems with the way you have carried yourself on this forum. I will also reiterate that i will not tolerate attacks of personal spiritual beliefs so please feel free to discuss them here if it is your will. :)
BTW, just for the record i have received no PMs in regards to that thread bon the other forum and i have not read the thread either so i will pass no judgement on it either way. :)

Keris with "pamengkang jagat" (a crack in sor-soran or the base of the keris blade -- in vertical position) usually found in kerises with pamor "adeg" (vertical stripes) or in pamor "sada sak ler" (one piece of palm leaf rib). And the crack is usually in the middle of the sor-soran, in vertical position.

This kind of keris with "pamengkang jagat" is much pursued by Javanese. Although this crack is in fact a forging flaw, some people believe that "pamengkang jagat" is good for "pursuing destination" (for instance, love...). And sometimes, this flaw even become the center of attention of a keris blade. Sometimes, quite artistic too... That's my humble opinion. I would like to hear Mr Mans or Mr Boedhy Aditya on this...

Ganjawulung

Greetings keris experts,

Ganjawulung – Thank you for the clarification. I’m glad you touch on "pamengkang jagat" (a crack in sorsoran or the base of the keris blade -- in vertical position). Appreciate the brief description however; I would not want to impose on others to provide the information. I feel it’s their rights and if they are reluctant to impart knowledge for I will respect their decision.

I’m fortunate to gain knowledge through networking with various people (don’t want to mention names) in this forum but often with confidentiality as a basis. Being ethical, I will ask permission to release information for sharing but was often rejected. That’s another reason why I prefer to keep mum and ask for referencing links.

David – Quoted: “Hana, i don't believe there has been a Tsunami here. This thread remained much too civil and cool headed throughout (thank you all) to be granted such a devastating title. No one is dead and the seas are relatively calm”.

Why I use “Tsunami” to contextualize what has happened? It’s not an exaggeration but more precise in my clarification. Here’s my observation; Tsunami attack = Sepokal posting, hitting many countries = nationality of forum members, chaotic people find ways to run for their lives = chaotic various members ready to reply responses, many dead = Thank god only one member stop penning, Tsunami ended and seas resume its calmness = Sepokal stop his replies and the other members started to lax.

BTW, I don’t mind helping with the translation as I’m into languages. I’m not an expert but can understand English, Malay, Bahasa Indonesia, Baweanese, Mandarin, Hokkien and Cantonese dialects. I’m currently still learning Javanese and French.

Penangsang – Please do not be disheartened with some negative responses. Remember my ex-colleague who loves to use this comment: “To assume is the mother of all **** up” (sorry for the foul language used). So the air is now clear and you can start beginning afresh.

Kind regards,
Hana

P.S – I believe in “Behaviour breed Behaviour” so be kind and respectful always…

Hana, I appreciate your flair for the dramatic . :D

However you have been suspended for 30 days for using profanity......

Raja Gundala
 

Dear respectable friends,

Since we are still on the subject of keris & spirit, let me tell you a story, that is if you all have the time....... :) .

My former mother in-law (my mother in-law from previous marriage) passed away a few months ago. My 2 daughters used to live with her in a traditional house in a not so modern village. After her passing, my daughters were afraid to stay alone in the house, esp when my ex-wife went to work everyday. So, after school, my daughters would stay out of the house, sometimes with the relatives, sometimes in the library or even in a nearby warong, waiting for my ex-wife to come home before getting into the house, and this had prompted me to take necessary action.

To make the long story short, last month, I brought a pamored Raja Gundala keris to the house, and told my 2 daughters that they should never be afraid of any unseen beings, and to my surprise, they told me that they had seen an old lady dressed in all white robe hanging around the house esp after sunset, and it appeared more often after midnite. Even my ex was also afraid.

I told them to recite certain Quranic verses, and to keep my Raja Gundala keris with them - to signify my presence, and to hold / display the keris when such object/s appeared again. They did as told and the house was not haunted again.

I was told by a wiseman that keris with that kind pamor was very powerful to keep bad spirit at bay, as well as strong anti black magic implement. Or maybe, it's all in the mind - when you are not afraid & confident, such bad spirit/s will be afraid and stay away from you?

I hope any of the forumites will be able to tell me whether Raja Gundala is really that powerful.

Regards,

Penangsang

Gonjo and kerislovers,

I have a keris with "pamengkang jagad = the world stretcher [?]". Or if it is not a keris with the world stretcher, it is a keris with "rondo beser". David and Gonjo, please translate to foruminities a word "rondo beser". Personally, I prefer a word "rondo beser" because its dapur/shape is sombro (Sombro is a name of female empu/kerissmith).

Here is the story of my Sombro with "rondo beser". Twice, I brought that keris to a monthly forum which attended by kerislovers in my hometown Djokja. What did some of them give comment on that keris? side effect of a flaw forging as Gonjo said in this forum.

On the other ocassion, I showed it to kerislovers who did not now about forging technique. In their opinion, this sombro was a very good keris because of extraordinary unseen power. One of them offered me unbelievable dowry (price) for that keris. In short, the keris is still mine now.

Seemingly, there is two different point of view on either "pamengkang jagad" or "rondo beser". One view tends to focus on forging technique whilst the other one tends to focus on the spiritual aspect. In my own opinion, these two different views can not compared each other because the difference comes since the beginning.

I just remember a fiction film "lord of the ring". I don't remember in detail about the broken sword which finally reforging successfully by so and so.

Does anyone of you have a keris with "pamengkang jagad" or "rondo beser"? Please share the pictures to our beloved kerislovers for enriching knowledge of keris by watching images. I am eager to share with you the pictures of my sombro with "the world stretcher or rondo beser=...." soon after I can afford a new digicam. Sigh... I lost my digicam last month.

warm regards,
Usmen

THE OLD TRADITIONS,KNOWLEGE ,BELIEFS AND MAGIC OF MY ANCESTORS IS NO LONGER PART OF OUR CULTURE AND HAS NOT BEEN FOR MANY GENERATIONS. THERE ARE STILL SOME THINGS THAT MOSTLY COME AS DREAMS, PREMONITIANS AND FEELINGS OF FEAR, WARMTH,POWER, ECT. BUT THEY ARE JUST SHADES, WHICH ARE OFTEN DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND.

I CAN READ BOOKS ON ANOTHER CULTURE AND GET A GLIMPSE OF THE CULTURE AND PERHAPS A BIT OF KNOWLEGE BUT WITHOUT BEING RAISED IN OR AT LEAST LIVING IN THE CULTURE FOR MANY YEARS I CAN NEVER ACHIVE THE SAME BELIEF OR UNDERSTANDING AS THEY CAN. SO IT SHOULD COME AS NO SURPRIZE THAT MY INTREPRETATION OF THE SOCIETY AND ITS CEREMONYS AND BELIEFS WOULD BE DIFFERENT FROM THEIRS. THIS IS NOT NECESSARLY A BAD THING IF I AM WILLING TO BE CORRECTED AND THEY ARE WILLING TO PERHAPS SEE WHY I THINK AS I DO AND NOT BE OFFENDED BY IT AND SHUT ME OUT.
ALL MODERN CULTURES HAVE LOST A LOT OF THESE OLD BELIEFS, CEREMONYS AND THE ABILITYS TO ACCESS THE POWERS AND KNOWLEGE OF ANCIENT TIMES SO IT BECOMES CONFUSING AND OFTEN THEORYS AND BELIEFS ARE BASED ON ONLY PART OF THE OLD KNOWLEGE SO IT IS NOT RIGHT OR COMPLETE. A LOT OF BELIEFS HAVE COME UP DUE TO OLD WRITEINGS OR STORIES WHICH WERE FICTION MADE UP TRYING TO PAINT A POSITIVE AND PRETTY PICTURE OF OUR OLD ANCESTORS AND THEIR WAYS WITH NO REAL KNOWLEGE AND SOMETIMES IGNORING THE FACTS.
IN PRIMATIVE TIMES THE PRODUCTION OF WEAPONS INVOLVED A LOT OF MAGICAL CEREMONY AND TECKNIQUE AND RITCUALS WERE SECRET AND ONLY SHARED WITH THE PRIVILEGED FEW. THIS SECRECY ALSO GAVE THE (IRON WORKERS FOR INSTANCE) POWER AND PRESTIGE THEY WERE THOUGHT TO HAVE SPECIAL POWERS AND KNOWLEGE AND WERE BOTH SOUGHT AFTER AND FEARED. STORIES OF THESE SUPERNATURAL POWERS ABOUND PEOPLE WHO CAN FORM METAL WITH THEIR BARE HANDS EITHER COLD OR MOLTEN AND HAD THE POWER TO PUT SPIRITS AND STRANGE POWERS INTO THE MYSTICAL ,ELEMENTAL METAL. THE IDEA THAT SOMETHING FROM THE SUN OR NOT OF THIS EARTH OR EVEN LIGHTNING HAS ALWAYS BEEN SEEN TO ADD SOME SPECIAL POWERS TO AN OBJECT. IT GOES BACK TO OUR EARLY DAYS WHEN MAN DID NOT KNOW MUCH OF HIS WORLD AND HOW IT WORKED SO EVERYTHING WAS MYSTERIOUS AND MAGICAL.

I PERSONALLY BELIEVE EVERYTHING WAS CREATED BY ONE POWERFUL CREATOR AND WE WILL FIND OUT MORE WHEN WE PASS FROM THIS LIFE.
SCIENCE IS NOTHING EXALTED IT IS JUST MANS METHOD OF TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW THE CREATOR MADE THINGS AND HOW THEY WORK. I HAVE TO LAUGH AT A SCIENTIST WHO FIGURES OUT ONE SMALL THING AND THEN SAYS HE HAS PROVED THERE IS NO CREATOR. IT IS LIKE A YOUNG CHILD FINDING OUT HOW TO OPEN A DOOR AND THEN THINKING HE IS THE RULER OF THE WORLD. :D

WE HAVE ACESS TO ONLY OUR 5 SENSES WHICH I THINK DENIES US OUR FULL ABILITYS AND LIMITS WHAT WE CAN SEE OR LEARN. PERHAPS THIS IS FOR OUR OWN GOOD BUT AT TIMES I CAN SENSE THERE IS MORE HERE IN OUR WORLD THAN WE KNOW. THE SHAMEN OR MEDICINE MEN MAY HAVE HAD SOME WAYS TO EXPAND THEIR 5 SENSES OR TO PARTIALY USE SOME OTHERS WE DON'T KNOW OF TO HELP THEIR TRIBES.

THE KERIS IS A BEAUTIFUL OBJECT FULL OF MYSTERY AS WELL AS A WEAPON. I LIKE TO MEDITATE AND EMPTY MY MIND AND FOLLOW THE PARMOR PATTERNS IN A BLADE. OFTEN I SEE THINGS I HAD NOT NOTICED AND A COUPLE OF TIMES I SAW THINGS THAT WHEN I LOOKED FOR AGAIN I COULD NEVER FIND. I FIND IT IS RELAXING AND IS A GREAT WAY TO GET TO KNOW A KERIS AND TO ENJOY IT MORE.
I DO ATTEMPT TO FIND THAT "RIGHT MENTAL ATTITUDE" AT TIMES. I FIND A NICE QUIET PLACE ,THE BEST IS OUTSIDE. THEN I SIT AND TRY TO RELAX AND EMPTY MY MIND AND STRIP AWAY ALL THE MENTAL ARMOR AND TRIALS AND WORRIES OF LIFE AND TO GET TO THE STATE OF INNOCENCE IN WHICH WE WERE BORN. I HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO ACHIVE IT YET BUT PERHAPS I WILL GET THERE SOMEDAY WITH DICIPLINE AND AGE. :shrug:

We often come to this point in the conversation whenever such matters are discussed. Is it "real" or only in ones mind. And so i ask, what does it matter as long as the desired effect takes place. ALL magick takes place first in the mind. ;) :)

David & Penangsang

a word related to your discussion about "not afraid and confident" is pusaka/keris/spear/heirloom as "sipat piandel". Sorry David for not translating "sipat piandel" in English. I do hope any forumity could translate it.

some devoted religious people use their holly book as "sipat piandel". some other devoted men think that holly book per se is nothing. It only contains written verses. however, to the others, holly book is needed to materialize what they believe and then the effect is to boost their confident. if gaining full confident, no one will be afraid to anything. Something exists because someone believes.

some people rely on their degree or curicullum vitae or colleagues or position or wealth as "sipat piandel". certain people rely on their KERIS (one of them with pamor ROJO GUNDOLO [=KING of SPIRIT?])

imho, actually, all those "sipat piandel" metioned above are the manifestation of THE SINGULARITY as Alan said. Normatively, every one must rely on the SINGULARITY directly as "sipat piandel" without any medium ("lantaran") such as holly book, KERIS, position, wealth, connection et cetera et cetera. IT IS VERY CLEAR. but, why dont people go directly?

imho, simply that THE PRESENT OF THE SINGULARITY IS TOO ABSTRACT.

meanwhile, all of us are growing up in the materialism age.

warm salam,
Usmen

Dear Raden Usman,
I will try to find the exact meaning of "rondo beser". (For this time being, I'm still travelling between Yogya-Solo-Yogya to and fro. And I've met Marco -- our keris Italian friend -- in Yogyakarta. We stay in the same hotel in Tirtodipuran Yogyakarta but of course not the same room.)

If I'm not mistaken, "rondo beser" is a bigger crack than "pamengkang jagat". And the literaly meaning of "rondo beser" is, "rondo" means "widow" and "beser" means "so often go to toilet". So, what is in a name? You may feel it.

In my opinion, "rondo beser" has a little bit negative conotation. But "pamengkang jagat" has more positive meaning. So it depends on the person, from what side or perspective he see the phenomenon (the crack in the blade).

This for the time being, my answer to you, Raden. After I come to Jakarta, I will search the more exact meaning of it. Anyway, I met your old friends in Yogyakarta, Raden. Your friend from Pametri Wiji Yogyakarta (the Yogyakarta Keris Association), are mentioning your name.

Ganjawulung

Thank you Usmen. I think i am able to grasp the meaning of "sipat piandel" through your usage of the term. You pose a very interesting question, i believe, and my answer to it is that very simply we don't need any particular medium, be it keris, holy books or whatever, to connect ourselves to the "Singularity".
The direct line is always there and can always be accessed. But personally i sometimes like to travel along a more winding path to see what the "Singularity" may have manisfest there. There may also be other lessons to be learned on that less direct path and one can find a different beauty manifested there (such as in the form of the keris) that one would miss otherwise. I believe the key here is not to fall prey to the idea that one cannot do without the trappings of one's Art in order to accomplish the "Great Work" that lies before us. When we do such things become merely a crutch that in the end has an opposite effect of weighing us down in our materialism when we really want to "fly". But if we understand the true nature of our tools and always keep in mind that ultimately they are unnecessary they can infact make the journey more "colorful". ;) :)

comment from friend
 

Dear all,
Especially to Moderator.

Peace...
I don't know, do I will breaking the rule if I post the comment from friend who got trouble with her account at this forum. But he asked me to post her comment in here.

Here her comment :


Dear all,

I didn’t expect my comment will be the cause for me being suspended as this is an adult forum. So do expect the unexpected. I heard this comment made in 1994 and now the impact still register in my mind. Anyway, I hope it will create a powerful impact on us of the danger in assuming things.

I will cease penning my writes from now on to bow low and step back. My being suspended is a sign from Almighty Allah to stop sharing my thoughts and findings. I will share an email (Keris & Spirits) quoted from someone whom I hold very high respect and look upon for his many years of wisdom.

He quoted: “Many people claim to be "experts", or get promoted as "experts" by their own little group. Very, very few people are truly expert in the area we are discussing, and those who truly are, are not easy to find.”

One last request from me to keris experts: to provide correct info and not mislead others. If you’re reluctant then just “shut your mouth” and keep mum. As for the others be initiative; do research and compare findings. Apologized if I happen to step on anybody’s toes for I’m a very forthright person with no hidden façade or agenda.

Sincerely,

Hana
P.S – Nice knowing you guys at Warung Kopi. Do take care!!

It Is Unfortunate
 

This forum is a part of the Vikingsword site; that means the guidelines and rules listed in the Main forum must also be followed .
I did not enjoy doing what I did but for consistency's sake I was compelled to .
Hana is welcome back after her suspension ends .

From the overall rules of behavior for *all* fora here:

" You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this forum to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy."

Let's move on ...

Rick

I agree with Rick that we should move on. If any member feels the need to continue this conversation i would be more than happy to discuss the matter further with them in PM. Hana's inquisitiveness and kindness will be missed, but in should be made clear that she is certainly welcome back after her suspension has past. :)
I would like to comment on the above passage from Hana's letter though. Truer words have rarely been stated in regards to the keris world. The arena is rife with pretenders. I will say, however, that i can think of no one here who has promoted themselves as an "expert" in this field and always feel a bit uncomfortable when someone addresses an inquirery "dear keris experts". The only person on this forum who i believe even remotely meets the profile of a "keris expert" would certainly never call himself one and is well aware of the limitations of his expertise to very specific areas of keris study. So i do ask you all that we procede with this attitude in mind; that we are all merely students of the keris, that there is so much more for any of us to know, that we will probably spend the rest of our lives in the persuit of this elusive knowledge, and that previously unknown answers can sometimes be provided by even the most neophyte amongst us, as inspiration is a gift from the creatrix that often lands in the laps of the most inexperienced of pupils. ;) :)

Dear Hana,

Quote:

Originally Posted by hana He quoted: “Many people claim to be "experts", or get promoted as "experts" by their own little group. Very, very few people are truly expert in the area we are discussing, and those who truly are, are not easy to find.”

What you said is true, but bear in mind... most of us here are not experts, nor claim to be one (me included). This is a place to share... when we have an opinion, we state it such. If we have our opinion... presented as facts, then others will want that fact to be supported or where the info originated. This would help us explore further... etc.

To err is human, we do make mistakes and at times, got corrected. We learn from our mistake and the mistakes of others, then we move on... :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by hana One last request from me to keris experts: to provide correct info and not mislead others. If you’re reluctant then just “shut your mouth” and keep mum. As for the others be initiative; do research and compare findings. Apologized if I happen to step on anybody’s toes for I’m a very forthright person with no hidden façade or agenda.

Hana, you mentioned that you are forthright, but up to now, I still could not figure out whom you are refering to as the keris experts, :confused: (you can email me).

I believe the others can stand their own ground... for years they've done so. I wish you the very best of luck in your quest for... hmmm... whatever that you're looking for. Cheers. ;)

Dear Raden Usman,
This is just small additional notes on the specific term of "rondo beser" (widow that too often goes to toilet) you mentioned in your post. The term "rondo beser", is only used in a keris or kerises which have "sogokan" (one of two vertical niches in the sor-soran or the base of a keris). It is called "rondo beser" if the "sogokan" has perforated (not crack, but kind of hole in the sogokan).

If you mentioned "dhapur sombro", it must be a keris which has no sogokan. Thus, the right term is not "rondo beser", but "pamengkang jagat" (crack in the middle of the base of keris, in vertical position...)

Sombro, actually is the name of a female empu of Pajajaran, around 10th century. And not the name of dhapur. The forms of kerises made by "Ni mBok Sombro" (designation of this female empu), usually was very simple. (See Ensiklopedi Keris, Bambang Harsrinuksmo page 439) Keris without sogokan, but some of them (believed) usually has kind of "traces of finger press" along the blade...

Some Javanese people -- according to Bambang Harsrinuksmo -- believed that kerises (many of them with the very simple in form and also in metal material) made by sombro have "invisible power"...

Ganjawulung

Pamengkang Jagad / Rondo Beser
 

Dear Kerislovers,

Finally, as I promised you, I upload keris, shape: sombro with Pamengkan Jagad or Rondho Beser.

Hope you will enjoy and continue the discussion of spirit and (inside) keris.

warm regards,
Usman

Dear Kerislovers,

Now, we have well-information about "Pamengkang Jagad" and "Rondho Beser". One still neglected is "Combong". Three of them have a similiar characteristic which having hole in their blade, dont they? I havent ever seen "Combong". I just hear about it. Does anyone have an information about Keris "Combong"?

Instead of lack of forging, a lot of people believe Keris Combong has great spiritual power especially to lure. If I am not mistaken.

Perhaps, as I started, we can share images of Pamengkan Jagad, Rondho Beser dan Combong for enriching ours.

Warm regards,

Usman

Dear Raden,
As far as I know, the crack in your betok is not "pamengkang jagat", but "combong". Pamengkang jagat is not as big crack as combong. Often, the pamengkang jagat's crack only one piece of hair size. Some stones (agates) can have "combong" crack too, and some people believed such stones have certain "power". I don't know the exact English word for "combong". May be big crack in a hard material, something like that...

Ganjawulung

Hello to all,

What about keris picit or putut kembar? Do you think that these kerises possesss special "power"? Some say that if a keris is "built" by the fingers, then is much more powerful than an ordinary one..Also the "praying priests" indicate something about the keris? Something spiritual maybe? Ganjagulung can you enlight us?

george

Hi George,
i am not mastering in 'spiritual power' in kerises. Though, I will help you to get a bit of information on that. Keris pichit, in Javanese term known as "keris pejetan". Simple model of kerises, which have kind of "traces" as if of "finger pressing" at the blade. Some "puthut kembar" (twin priests) have kind of "finger pressing" like this, but not always. Keris pejetan, usually iras or without ganja (one piece blade).

Many myths surrounds this type of simple blade. But many stories, connected these simple made kerises to a woman name of Empu Ni Mbok Sombro -- some believed she was a woman empu from the Pajajaran era (before Majapahit era, about 10th century). Yes, some people believed that such kerises have kind of "power".

Keris pejetan, known also as keris with "luk samun" (hidden luks). Some people, even counts the numbers of pejetan in the blade. Some have 11, or 13 pejetans, as if they are luks in kerises -- though the blades are actually straight kerises. So, keris pejetan is a "straight keris but with luks"...

The simple appearance, believed to show the intention of the maker or makers that such kerises were not for "weapon", but for special meaning. May be amulet, talisman, or kind of that. The iron of the blade, usually is good kind of old iron. Usually, the dhapur is "brojol", the most simple model of straight keris..

Puthut kembar, is often "mistakenly" mentioned as "keris umyang". Umyang actually was not a dhapur name, but a name of a famous long living empu believed to live in the very end of Majapahit era, and into Demak, Pajang and the beginning of Islamic Mataram era. The appearance of this kind of keris, is quite simple, though "attractive" because of the odd reliefs of puthut in the "gandhik" (front base of keris) and "wadidang" (rear base of keris). Umyang, known as an eccentric empu, so the keris which was widely named as "keris umyang" believed to have certain magical power. It is just my humble information...

Ganjawulung

Thanks Ganjawulung for the info,

Are there any info for the keris with pamor Tiban? As I know, this kind of pamor is unplanned by the empu, and it had something to do with the will of Heaven for this keris..That gives a special "spiritual" meaning to the keris or no?

george