Well that makes the water Muddier but just feature more untruths. Disguised within a list of references.


I have great respect for W. Ingrams work About Zanzibar. Its not his statements or words I doubt....

You mention Chapter 39 pages 399

chapter 37 starts on page 399

it covers music & dance as you say.

No mention of swords is made. None... Never mind your fictitious quote..

Chapter 38 on page 411 continues about music & dance.
No mention of swords is made. None... Never mind your fictitious quote..

{Although it does mention a song sang by the genital mutilator while sharpening his knife. "to frighten"}

Chapter 39 is about nature & starts on page. 423.

If you say your not making up falsehoods & lies.

Then please supply the necessary quote about your statement..

Because the truth is, Its not true. Its not in the book ;)

You made it up. It is a lie.

Ingram never said it.

Spiral

Ibrahiim, what Spiral is saying is that the Ingrams quote simply states "swords", not what kind or shaped swords or whether or not they were stiff or flexible blades. Your conclusion is therefore an inference based upon what you know of the Razha sword dance, though i am not certain that it stands as proof that the type of sword other are claiming here does not exist.
Here is a link to an entry on the Razha which does indeed seem to support that this dance is performed with flexible blades, though there is nothing here about the origins of the dance itself or what swords may or may not have been used the very first or subsequent times it was performed. Just as Morris sword dancing is done with dulled blades made specifically for the dance it does seem likely to me that when this dance was first created it was done to some extent with true combat blades.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21104396533277

I think that the link you kindly provided says it all...that the dance was performed before starting out on a raid. It would seem very unlikely that after the dance, the swords used there were changed for fighting swords.

So basically, Ibrahim's argument to be summed up about the straight Omani saif (called kattara by western collectors but confirmed to be simply called saif by Omanis while the curved version is named kattara) is a dancing sword ONLY for 300 years or so is the following:

1- a quote that doesnt exist.
2- modern made swords.
3- claiming genuine antiques with non-flexible blades to be fakes. Which is baffling to say the least.
4- Using a news article that speaks about the modern dancing sword and that its not sharp "to avoid injury" and using it as some sort of evidence that the whole sword type is dancing only.
5- Using obvious fakes with poor taste mounts as some sort of evidence.
6- Lack of a 'dancing' katara that isnt 2 days old.
7- Using items altered in his shop as evidence.

At the risk of being banned, I call bullshit when I see it.

Salaams David and thank you for your excellent reference on the dance routine. I simply cannot trace in my vast pile of notes the reference in Ingrams but I am sure it is there but he had several print runs over the decades...I'm sure it will pop up...

What your reference indicates is that ...first there was also another dance with daggers ... I will set that aside first as from another Funun Genre called the "Baraa..." very much part of the Funun in the Salalah or Dhofar region.

On the Dancing Sword what you say is partly right... before the springy dancing sword the Battle Sword was used in the Funun... (it goes way back thats why its called "the traditions")... It didn't suddenly start with the dancing sword. This explains why the accoutrement..the Terrs ... and the sharp edges and round tip are copied onto the dancer... from the Battle Sword. In this regard it is time specific as an invention at or about the start of the current dynasty but which I think is 70 or 80 years later... in the reign of Said bin Sultan who ruled 1804 to 1856...

Your reference describes the Razha.... (I was not accurate in describing that) It involves the lines of dancing participants... The other pantomime or semi contest is the mimic fight...with 2 participants and the single winning point won by touching the opponents thumb behind his terrs shield.

It is however vital to separate the two functions of fighting sword and dancer. The dancer was never a fighting sword and no other derivitive of it existed with some thicker blade... It just is not there. If it was the museums would have them hanging on the walls and in glass cases and with write ups....None ! The Reference work from Richardson and Dorr would be teaming with them.... and the simple question to fathers, grandfathers and elders ... Was this sword or anything similar ever used in fighting?.... Puzzled looks.... Retorts like "are you crackers"?... hahaha!! general mirth and poking of fun and derision....and mutterings.... No way.

It therefor begs the question... where have these thicker heavier non flexible blades come from.... They are post 1970 Muttrah rehilts as described.

Yes you are correct in that I know what the sword is and indeed it is an inference logically based ... The Manga were the dancers from Muscat ... This was the Funun... so knowing that the traditions were only done with the dancer....etc... Inference...

I said there was no silver bullet at my summary, however, the great body of work is indicative of the heraldic, non combat dancer... with the flexible blade.... No other weapon based upon this form ever existed. :shrug:

Thank you for your post.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams khanjar 1. Why not?.. The dancing sword was part of the tribal infantrymans kit. Most of what these guards did was salutation and pageant. They needed the Heraldic item to do all of them.

As a physical effort I agree done to intensity the mimic fight could have been quite energetic and maybe they got pumped up doing it... but they didnt go off and attack anyone with these wobbly blades and they didn't have another sword like it with a hard blade... but if a sword was needed... a quick diversion down the Fort Armoury and draw a Battle Sword .. or in fact no swords .. Guns only.. The Abufuttila..and/or spears.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Bonjour Ibrahim!

You supposedly had your reference . 3 days ago when you posted this .

You were very precise then... Some haven't notice you only play confused ^ muddy the waters when your caught out. Your quite confident & concise when on the attack.

There have been several print runs... all of the same text! there called reprints, there not translations or interpretations!

So to reiterate you state.

And that is a lie.

It really is that simple.

Spiral

Ought you not to know better ? I refer you to the 10 point summary but would ask you to remain polite in your reply and honourable which is the tradition amongst men. Do you really expect that your 7 points can be seriously viewed? Have you done any research? Produce a counter play. Why would I not want to uncover a potential battle sword? I can tell you for sure that if another battle sword existed based upon the dancer design I would already have shown it... so come on lets hear your thesis on the weapon and if it holds water I will even go out and see if I can uncover one...Do you suppose I didn't try to do that?

I spent the last week with the beni kaab and they all had a good laugh when I explained the story. The ghost sword never existed ... It is a red herring.... It never happened.

For you however I invite you to drop in on Muttrah ... I will show you the workshops and introduce you to the artisans who did the switches... Nothing wrong with that if you know the souk ...They have done this down the ages... Its what sells there...You know?...business.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

You have been disrespecting members who have debated you all the time. I guess perhaps, you should listen to your own advice. And I guess, thinking an argument is bullshit counts as disrespectful to a person? Well, thats interesting.

As for your summary, it is exactly the repetition of arguments that make no sense.

If replying to silly hypothesis about a particular sword requires a real thesis in reply, I doubt there will be any research.

But thanks for the advice, you never know what might happen!

The examples you have shown are brand new or new dressed old blades. Everyone with experience in the field of antiques can tell the difference.

Now examples that belong in many western collections (and Arab ones, which I plan to bring out photos of soon) are better dressed, have rich mounts that are simply a hassle to make for a fake yet you claim those are fake without producing any evidence.

Btw, we are still waiting for an antique flexible saif, all the ones we saw coming from you are new.

Salaams Spiral, I refer you to my 10 point plan but I do reply to your post in the hope that you observe the common courtesy demanded of this Forum since from my viewpoint I have studied this subject thoroughly whilst others have only scratched the surface... and I have always been aware of the heated nature of this discussion... heat is ok... when it's correctly turned up... The hot anvil of discussion.

There is a vast omount of work to be done on this sword both in and out of museums and documents and I must have driven thousands of miles around the country finding out the facts. Oman is a country that only ventured into the modern world in 1970... much is still undocumented fully.

Forum is the first priority insofar as I am concerned and if I have uncovered a demon... a sword that has no place in the countrys history then I will report just that... and I have done. It's a non starter... It's a red herring ... It doesn't and never did exist...I wish it did ...:shrug:

Oh I almost forgot... No, I'm not a liar.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Too funny...

The fighting sword type has been presented in form and in theory, yet you do not embrace it....you do not seek to explore it, only refute the data provided with wild guesses, long indirect stories and no facts to support further wild claims.

Your stories about what I had presented have also been changed and swapped around within the 17 months this thread has been running...and then without honour addressed in a most distasteful manner.... :eek:

Now the hard questions I pose are passed in full and other's questions are answered with so much fat any hope of a straight answer is lost.

it is all good fun. do continue.

Post Script; the entire notion of dances swords in a modern context is wonderful and embraced. But to go beyond the 19th century, the discussion should be "Oman swords danced with", knowing many types were used over time. The long handled straight sword was used for both fighting and dancing..it is all rather clear.

Please refresh my memory, perhaps I read too quick...where is this historically referenced?

Shalom Ibrahim.

To save the repetition of typing...

No, you are not... you are a person, to whom a false quotation means "to break a few eggs along the way" (quote Ibrahiim al Balooshi).

And that together with your scholarly attitude.

Moderator's Comment
 

Okay, gentlemen. Here is how this is going to work.

The next person (or persons) who is unable to continue this "debate" in a neutral, objective manner will cause this thread to be locked, and will receive a 10 day suspension of posting privileges.

This means you should studiously avoid including any comment within your post that the least aggravated among us might construe as rude, inflammatory, ad hominem, a "dig", etc. Perhaps you might even consider limiting your comments to---wait for it---the merits of the other posters' comments, rather than the posters themselves. :rolleyes:

We rapidly approach critical mass here...

Andrew
Vikingsword Staff

Salaams Forum ~ The well documented detail of the flexible dancing sword can be seen at the fine reference from David viz; http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21104401332677 and until I can trace the reference by H Ingrams who it can be seen at my post above was a fine historian who wrote the book on Zanzibar and in fact another load of anecdotes on Hadramaut ..who knows maybe it is one of those references that got crossed in the system though if my memory serves me well I am almost certain it was on the subject of Manga ...a structure I had never heard about until I wrote the reference in Kattara for comments...a while ago but researchers know well my predicament and that when it turns up I will place it here.

Meanwhile the Omani Dancing Sword wrongly or mistakenly mis-reported down the ages from the early 18th C by the half dozen or so visitors to Oman continues to stretch the imagination unabated though hopefully with restraint and honourability amongst men...

I repeat that at the start I was so taken in by the furore and warlike nature of the sword in its mimic fight that I too thought it was a fighting weapon.

Having looked at hundreds of blades I have seen none that qualify as battle worthy. I have spoken to many many Omani people in and out of the Souk and examined blades there and in the Museums where I have seen no battle blades ... that is stuff blades ...moreover they are bendy to over 90 degrees some more or less than others by a few degrees. They are very flexible... and clearly this blade type is no fighter...not only because the question has been asked here where they just laugh at the notion but because it simply doesn't stack up ... A rigid blade would make mincemeat of this in a real contest... moreover it is the famed dancer of Funun traditional dancing...and despite its sharp edges it simply cannot be something it is not.

To date no known battle sword in this configuration exists except in the imagination of the early 19th C visitors etc but people are doubly hoodwinked by those narratives and the appearance in Souks of the Ethiopian blade ... please allow me to smile at this point... its amazing.... Where was I..?. Oh yes the Ethiopian blade rehilted on the Omani longhilt from about 1970.

Some forum members have alluded to this blade or a fighting blade with a thick stiff blade ...that is built like a dancing sword ..It does not exist in reality as a historical fact...It is a red herring. Tribal soldiers carried the Sword and Terrs as part of their equipment since they were required to do pageant and saluting with it all the time and to stay fit the mimic fight was quite useful but done more in the pageant...in The Funun as at the reference at the top of this post.

Anyone who is somehow able to conjure up a completely unknown weapon of this description will become instantly famous ... An as yet undiscovered fighting sword of Oman. Those individuals who reckon it exists are requested in the time honoured way; to prove it.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Noted in full Andrew. Thank you. Ive been doing my best...

iechyd da boyo Ibrahim!

To further help your reference search for the elusive quote from an unknown place,source or origin { perhaps by the respected researcher Ingrams or perhaps not... :shrug: }

Namely.....


These screen below captures may help.

Despite the whole book not being available online from google books, a word search on the relevant reference page brings up the references, even for pages that are not officially available.

linky to the book of words.

Its a very useful tool, I found so anyway. :D

Fascinatingly the relevant song & dance chapters you citied are also complete! {Rather than having to use the internal word search function.}

{Its the 1931 edtion you original quoted before understandable uncertainty of your source set in.}


Have you considered that the fact in your imagination & that of your trader friends & associates in fake Omani swords that all fighting blades are rigid, could be wrong?.

Historically in many cultures this is wrong! A blow from a razor sharp 30 inch or whatever blade of thin whippy spring steel construction will cut you to the bone, slide down the bone & remove great hanging pieces of flesh & sinew , slicing arteries as it does so.

Highly efficient against tribesmen peasants & slaves, {not to mention women & children. :o } {ref. page 144 in Ingrams excellent work..}wearing a thin dress of cotton at most.

That is a fact.

If you & your associates down at the dockside souks are unaware of it that's another thing. ...Have you contemplated that as possible Ibrahim? Perhaps a little wider research will help you there? :shrug:

Skinny spring steels blades will strip you bare to the bone......If razor sharp of course...

Spiral

O yes, before I forget, Please if you ever find the elusive source of your statement re. Ingrams certainty that only straight dancing swords were used.

Please add it to this thread.... There many waiting to see the source in its entirety & properly referenced. As you know.. some people may be just a touch sceptical... ;)

Its seems terrible to not be able to fathom the true source of such a critical & important statement, that so supported you in your 17 month long thread, particularily in your hour of need in the face of so much scepticism from myself & so many other forum members. :eek:

Hwyl fawr am nawr Ibrahim!

spiral

Salaams Spiral... I'm so glad you found the reference on page 205 as I thought I was going crackers ! How on earth I was supposed to have made that lot up is beyond me... So the reference is accurate viz as is the other reference by David(used in my second paragraph below) who quite correctly has seen the detail of the straight sword as belonging in my logical assessment or inference ... ie I know the sword was straight because that's the shape of the Funun sword. I hope you allow inference in the detective story of this sword... and insofar as written down transcript I trust you are aware of the unwritten history of the Funun.

On the subject of Funun and the straight sword see http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.23...=21104401332677 where it explains the weapon used in Razha. Consider what sword may have been first used in the Funun and in that regard the Old Omani Battle Sword fits... pre the Dynastic Sword or flexible dancer..

What this pair of references has effectively done is to close out any interlopers in the time frame. What it cannot show is what occured much later in 1970 when Oman opened the door into the late 20th Century and the through trade between souks flourished not least with blade rehilting which was quite prolific ...but the story has been told...

On with the show !!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Please look back along these roads, there is still much to see and consider.

What is a battle worthy blade to you? Please describe this.

Have a look here;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcLH9p-mKsY

Jian are of a less broad elliptical cross section, sometimes diamond cross section and typically without fullers, take particular note of the flex.

But it does stack up. Would you like me to show you how an Omani straight sword, one you consider is for dance only, how it cuts in real life. You ask for proof, will this along with all the other written words from time past, convince you?

Study sword play please, the heavier blade will not make mincemeat of a lighter supple blade, the lighter supple blade is faster in the hand, like a razor and bends to its masters hand. The skilled warrior with such a light sword will conquer the enemy much quicker and without effort...the long handle offers a wonder twist in fighting too.

Indeed it is famous in the funun, its origins and purpose as missed by you though.

But it does, it stares you in the face and sits in your hands.

It is amazing, very amazing, amazing only for the single blade type you have presented as a souk sword from Ethiopia, a very stout and standard fullered blade type of EU origins made for the Ethiopian market, not even close to the form this far of these fair Oman swords.
It is further amazing that the blade proportions and types of the Oman sword being discussed are not found in the Ethiopian sword forms. Of the 25+ forms I have handled over hundreds of Ethiopian swords and thousands more I have viewed, the blade type found in the Oman long handled sword it not one of them. I will not say they do not exist, there may be several examples from northern borders but the claim that Souks have remounted Ethiopian blade in long hilted Omani style, is to this point not shown or proved beyond your hearsay...which is contrary to the facts I note above.

The long handled form carries both blade forms, heavy and light. Complete and further study will eventually lead you fact to your first thoughts about the sword.

Would you like my autograph :-) I can't take credit though, it has always been there.

Salaams ...I am fully aware of flexible blade use ... The Shotley Bridge maker hid one in his bowler hat and amazed onlookers at a trade show...I know many nations used such flexible weapons.. but you know that Omani dancing swords were never used in a battle ... In addition what you are trying to show is a firm stiff blade built along the same lines as the dancing sword~ that has never been part of history here. It never happened.

I have explained the story of the dancer in full ... I don't know any more info such is the vast degree of stuff I have presented from the Funun ~Omani tradition~ through Ingrams and Skeens notes above and all the details at the now famous summary on thread.

Cutting in half bamboo or watermellons does not prove the sword battle capable...or that it was used for fighting in the past... The edges were sharp for another reason... In honour etc as explained. The sword that did the damage was the Old Omani Battle Sword.

I think the request to show an old dancing sword is reasonable and I shall endeavor to do just that. There are however no in between swords or a ghost weapon that no one has noticed save the rehilt situation...which everyone is up in arms about when it is only human nature ...I estimate thousands were released onto world collections over the almost half decade of rehilting..This was done with Sanaa rehilts and Muscat work... in some cases expertly carried out. People are almost damning of the process but it happened and is still going on...does that mean the Muttrah people dont have good swords?..

Ha ! I can say that given the choice If I am in Muscat and its a spin up Museums or Muttrah Souk ... Take me to the souk any day! because amongst it all there are the genuine items...and in fact...they also have provided the real McCoy on occasions to the Museums !!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I don't feel hat or belt swords even need a mention here, flexible swords, worn suspended in the open real world are not parallel.

The full dancer story has its merit here, only in that the dancing with a sword is a long tradition. The use of a sword in the Funun in noted...But regarding the types of blades and use of the sword in the past, nothing thus far, has proved the sword type under discussion was "ONLY" used to dance.
Nothing thus far has proved the sword of exact same visual form that carries a heavier blade is from the Souks.
To show you this detail, also please bring your best Souk fake to the table too and we can then compare it pound for pound, however make sure it is the absolute best though, in proper old and complete dress, with all the silver trimming of the best dance sword you care to show, anything less is not worth wasting our time on....you know, the type you said carry all old original hilts and fittings.
Please also refer to my notes about the Ethiopian sword types and surprise me, show me one of these old blades that mirror the Oman swords shape in native context or freshly arrived Souk port complete and intact from Ethiopia.
I have nothing against what they do in the Souk, however, I do and have noted that the Souk copy sword shown is in bad taste. It does not, from the sinlge image presented, even resemble an Omani sword.

Thank you.

To further my previous posts, can you also please quote the historical passages/references where it notes Omani swords were only sharpened for honour of forefathers. I can not find it :shrug:

Thanks

No one doubted that reference or said it didn't exist.

Your Engish is better than many peoples born in England. you know that.

This is the one I repeatedly asked you to justify.

You know... the one that doesn't exist, but you repeatedly stated did even when challenged.

spiral

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